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All New Cars Sold in EU to Be Fitted with Data Recording 'Black Box'

34 points by Anonymous4272 5y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
This seems like sensationalist blogspam. Is there not a more direct source that could be used?
- guilhas 5y ago
  Speed limiters and black boxes installed in new cars from 2022 and police can access data https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1142525/EU-speed-limiter-laws-black-box-UK-How-affect-you https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1142525/EU-speed-l...
  - TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
    That's not a lot better.
  - tomcooks 5y ago
    UK is not part of the EU, and the Express is hardly a newspaper
lionkor 5y ago
The latter half is a purely speculative opinion piece and, in my opinion, trues to blend too well with the facts in the article. > The ultimate dystopian scenario involves giving police the power to utilize similar technology to completely disable the functioning of a vehicle if the driver is deemed to have committed an infraction. This doesn’t need to be a criminal offense, if the pursuit of social credit score schemes continues to become more invasive, it would eventually be used as a form of punishment for everything from unpaid utility bills to offensive comments posted on social media.
- core-utility 5y ago
  I didn't see a mention of remote access, but if one is to assume that's possible then that's a huge vector for a major terrorism attack. Disable every vehicle with a black box from driving. Near term effect is preventing those vehicles from operating, long term effect is the distrust in those systems and vehicle manufacturers it'll bring.
  - danuker 5y ago
    I am surprised no such widely-publicized attack happened yet on CPUs. The Intel Management Engine and AMD Platform Security Processor allow remote access. https://www.fsf.org/blogs/sysadmin/the-management-engine-an-attack-on-computer-users-freedom https://www.fsf.org/blogs/sysadmin/the-management-engine-an-...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
rich_sasha 5y ago
This has been on the cards for a while, I can’t see how this is so controversial. It’s fairly easy to pass a driving test. You can then buy a 2 tonne monster with heaps of power and very little to police how you’re driving. You can be speeding, intimidating other people etc and you’re unlikely to get caught. As someone who strives to drive safely, I welcome this. Oh and Big Bad Government track my phone and the Covid vaccine microchip already so what’s another tracker?
- magicalhippo 5y ago
  > It’s fairly easy to pass a driving test. That's quite a country-specific statement. Here in Norway[1] there's a non-trivial 17 hour mandatory course required, including at least 13 hours of driving with a licensed instructor, as well as a theory test and a final 1-hour driving test. They've extended the mandatory parts quite a bit in recent times as part of Vision Zero[2]. [1]: https://www.vegvesen.no/en/driving-licences/driver-training/how-to-get-a-driving-licence/passenger-car--b/?lang=en https://www.vegvesen.no/en/driving-licences/driver-training/... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero
- rimliu 5y ago
  > It’s fairly easy to pass a driving test. Not in EU.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    I hold an EU driving license. Anyway, my point isn’t that it’s trivial, rather that it’s easy to pass for someone determined to do it. The expectation is that almost every able-bodies adult, and many disabled, should be able to do it with some work. And that’s all you need to get your hands in an SUV or an old-but-powerful Audi. A bit like with guns in parts of the US, any crazy person with time and money can get one. So policing this mess is key.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Lots of people are subservient to authority so I absolutely understand why you and a lot of people have this opinion and I can see there are pros to doing such things. Do you accept that there are people who place value on privacy from government and believe that governments can abuse their powers, and that they have a valid opinion so a balance which takes that into account should be found, including the possibility that existing surveillance might already be too much?
londons_explore 5y ago
The fact that most of the things normally put here in HN on this kind of topic are already in the article tells me that the general tone of "privacy is a government Vs private individual battle" is starting to become widespread public knowledge.
kmlx 5y ago
reminds me of this: https://qbeeurope.com/news-and-events/blog-articles/mandatory-speed-limiters-on-the-way/ https://qbeeurope.com/news-and-events/blog-articles/mandator... apparently all of this is necessary for the transition to completely automated driving.
YakBizzarro 5y ago
any additional source of it? The article refer to another almost identical article, but without any link to actual legislation
- est31 5y ago
  The requirement gets into effect in 2022, but the regulation 2019/2144 which introduced it is from 2019: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2019/2144/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2019/2144/oj It also mandates some further systems that all improve vehicle safety.
  - tomcooks 5y ago
    Finally some sources, thank you. Point b of chapter 2 seems to be the most interesting for this kind of discussion 2. Intelligent speed assistance shall meet the following minimum requirements: (a) it shall be possible for the driver to be made aware through the accelerator control, or through dedicated, appropriate and effective feedback, that the applicable speed limit is exceeded; (b) it shall be possible to switch off the system; information about the speed limit may still be provided, and intelligent speed assistance shall be in normal operation mode upon each activation of the vehicle master control switch; (c) the dedicated and appropriate feedback shall be based on speed limit information obtained through the observation of road signs and signals, based on infrastructure signals or electronic map data, or both, made available in-vehicle; (d) it shall not affect the possibility, for the drivers, of exceeding the system’s prompted vehicle speed; (e) its performance targets shall be set in order to avoid or minimise the error rate under real driving conditions.
Malcx 5y ago
The author, Paul Joseph Watson, is not the most honest reporter/personality out there and usually has a pretty obvious bias. Without additional, reliable, sources I'll keep this in my skeptical folder.
- dsego 5y ago
  He is a far-right conspiracy nutjob.
  - tuatoru 5y ago
    Thank you for translating what Malcx said!
fy20 5y ago
I don't really see a problem with this, as long as it is only used after an incident and only available to law enforcement. Of course it's a slippery slope, first this, then something else, but that's a different story. If you want to drive a 2+ ton vehicle that can easily kill or seriously injure innocent people, then you should be responsible for your actions and dangerous driving should be taken seriously. In many EU countries there is already so much CCTV that the authorities know exactly where you are driving and how fast (average over a distance) you are driving, so this doesn't really change anything there.
- smitty1e 5y ago
  > as long as it is only used after an incident and only available to law enforcement. I submit that this is Chekhov's_gun[1]. The only means of keeping the data safe from unforeseen usage is never keep it in the first place. One elusive flavor of wisdom is the idea that it's OK to leave things be and not optimize them. Call it the "Technocrat Temptation", but to squeeze the entropy out of life is to beget hell on Earth. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  If we had the technology to implant tamper-proof devices in people that recorded location, audio and video, and some basic bio data, but that data could only be be made available to law enforcement under specific circumstances, would you really see a problem with making that mandatory for everybody? It would be a great tool for crime solving. Almost all violent crimes and property crimes could be immediately solved by data mining when and where a person was killed or injured or property was damaged or stolen, who else was around. Why would it be a different story?
OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
These are already commonplace in the US. They're called Event Data Recorders. While they're technically optional, I'm not sure there's been a car sold in the last decade without one. If you get in a wreck it will record data about the cars speed, seatbelts, etc from the last moments before the crash. Otherwise, it's a ring buffer that isn't retained. ETA: More information about the EU here: https://unece.org/media/transport/Vehicle-Regulations/press/361071 https://unece.org/media/transport/Vehicle-Regulations/press/...
tomcooks 5y ago
A copy of a zero hedge article with little to no sources, in the homepage? Ok
sildur 5y ago
The original source of this heap of trash disguised as article is summit.news. I think that should be enough.
maxehmookau 5y ago
Articles by far-right provocateurs don't belong on HN.
- tomcooks 5y ago
  It's not about left and right, it's about being a journalist that has done extensive research and can provide sources, or a spammy clickbaiter.
  - maxehmookau 5y ago
    Normally not. But this particular author is not just “right”, but far-right. This context is highly relevant when critiquing it’s context.

34 points by Anonymous4272 5y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago

This seems like sensationalist blogspam. Is there not a more direct source that could be used?

guilhas 5y ago
Speed limiters and black boxes installed in new cars from 2022 and police can access data https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1142525/EU-speed-limiter-laws-black-box-UK-How-affect-you https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1142525/EU-speed-l...
- TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
  That's not a lot better.
- tomcooks 5y ago
  UK is not part of the EU, and the Express is hardly a newspaper

lionkor 5y ago

The latter half is a purely speculative opinion piece and, in my opinion, trues to blend too well with the facts in the article. > The ultimate dystopian scenario involves giving police the power to utilize similar technology to completely disable the functioning of a vehicle if the driver is deemed to have committed an infraction. This doesn’t need to be a criminal offense, if the pursuit of social credit score schemes continues to become more invasive, it would eventually be used as a form of punishment for everything from unpaid utility bills to offensive comments posted on social media.

core-utility 5y ago
I didn't see a mention of remote access, but if one is to assume that's possible then that's a huge vector for a major terrorism attack. Disable every vehicle with a black box from driving. Near term effect is preventing those vehicles from operating, long term effect is the distrust in those systems and vehicle manufacturers it'll bring.
- danuker 5y ago
  I am surprised no such widely-publicized attack happened yet on CPUs. The Intel Management Engine and AMD Platform Security Processor allow remote access. https://www.fsf.org/blogs/sysadmin/the-management-engine-an-attack-on-computer-users-freedom https://www.fsf.org/blogs/sysadmin/the-management-engine-an-...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

rich_sasha 5y ago

This has been on the cards for a while, I can’t see how this is so controversial. It’s fairly easy to pass a driving test. You can then buy a 2 tonne monster with heaps of power and very little to police how you’re driving. You can be speeding, intimidating other people etc and you’re unlikely to get caught. As someone who strives to drive safely, I welcome this. Oh and Big Bad Government track my phone and the Covid vaccine microchip already so what’s another tracker?

magicalhippo 5y ago
> It’s fairly easy to pass a driving test. That's quite a country-specific statement. Here in Norway[1] there's a non-trivial 17 hour mandatory course required, including at least 13 hours of driving with a licensed instructor, as well as a theory test and a final 1-hour driving test. They've extended the mandatory parts quite a bit in recent times as part of Vision Zero[2]. [1]: https://www.vegvesen.no/en/driving-licences/driver-training/how-to-get-a-driving-licence/passenger-car--b/?lang=en https://www.vegvesen.no/en/driving-licences/driver-training/... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero
rimliu 5y ago
> It’s fairly easy to pass a driving test. Not in EU.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  I hold an EU driving license. Anyway, my point isn’t that it’s trivial, rather that it’s easy to pass for someone determined to do it. The expectation is that almost every able-bodies adult, and many disabled, should be able to do it with some work. And that’s all you need to get your hands in an SUV or an old-but-powerful Audi. A bit like with guns in parts of the US, any crazy person with time and money can get one. So policing this mess is key.
throwawaylinux 5y ago
Lots of people are subservient to authority so I absolutely understand why you and a lot of people have this opinion and I can see there are pros to doing such things. Do you accept that there are people who place value on privacy from government and believe that governments can abuse their powers, and that they have a valid opinion so a balance which takes that into account should be found, including the possibility that existing surveillance might already be too much?

londons_explore 5y ago

The fact that most of the things normally put here in HN on this kind of topic are already in the article tells me that the general tone of "privacy is a government Vs private individual battle" is starting to become widespread public knowledge.

kmlx 5y ago

reminds me of this: https://qbeeurope.com/news-and-events/blog-articles/mandatory-speed-limiters-on-the-way/ https://qbeeurope.com/news-and-events/blog-articles/mandator... apparently all of this is necessary for the transition to completely automated driving.

YakBizzarro 5y ago

any additional source of it? The article refer to another almost identical article, but without any link to actual legislation

est31 5y ago
The requirement gets into effect in 2022, but the regulation 2019/2144 which introduced it is from 2019: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2019/2144/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2019/2144/oj It also mandates some further systems that all improve vehicle safety.
- tomcooks 5y ago
  Finally some sources, thank you. Point b of chapter 2 seems to be the most interesting for this kind of discussion 2. Intelligent speed assistance shall meet the following minimum requirements: (a) it shall be possible for the driver to be made aware through the accelerator control, or through dedicated, appropriate and effective feedback, that the applicable speed limit is exceeded; (b) it shall be possible to switch off the system; information about the speed limit may still be provided, and intelligent speed assistance shall be in normal operation mode upon each activation of the vehicle master control switch; (c) the dedicated and appropriate feedback shall be based on speed limit information obtained through the observation of road signs and signals, based on infrastructure signals or electronic map data, or both, made available in-vehicle; (d) it shall not affect the possibility, for the drivers, of exceeding the system’s prompted vehicle speed; (e) its performance targets shall be set in order to avoid or minimise the error rate under real driving conditions.

Malcx 5y ago

The author, Paul Joseph Watson, is not the most honest reporter/personality out there and usually has a pretty obvious bias. Without additional, reliable, sources I'll keep this in my skeptical folder.

dsego 5y ago
He is a far-right conspiracy nutjob.
- tuatoru 5y ago
  Thank you for translating what Malcx said!

fy20 5y ago

I don't really see a problem with this, as long as it is only used after an incident and only available to law enforcement. Of course it's a slippery slope, first this, then something else, but that's a different story. If you want to drive a 2+ ton vehicle that can easily kill or seriously injure innocent people, then you should be responsible for your actions and dangerous driving should be taken seriously. In many EU countries there is already so much CCTV that the authorities know exactly where you are driving and how fast (average over a distance) you are driving, so this doesn't really change anything there.

smitty1e 5y ago
> as long as it is only used after an incident and only available to law enforcement. I submit that this is Chekhov's_gun[1]. The only means of keeping the data safe from unforeseen usage is never keep it in the first place. One elusive flavor of wisdom is the idea that it's OK to leave things be and not optimize them. Call it the "Technocrat Temptation", but to squeeze the entropy out of life is to beget hell on Earth. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun
throwawaylinux 5y ago
If we had the technology to implant tamper-proof devices in people that recorded location, audio and video, and some basic bio data, but that data could only be be made available to law enforcement under specific circumstances, would you really see a problem with making that mandatory for everybody? It would be a great tool for crime solving. Almost all violent crimes and property crimes could be immediately solved by data mining when and where a person was killed or injured or property was damaged or stolen, who else was around. Why would it be a different story?

OldTimeCoffee 5y ago

These are already commonplace in the US. They're called Event Data Recorders. While they're technically optional, I'm not sure there's been a car sold in the last decade without one. If you get in a wreck it will record data about the cars speed, seatbelts, etc from the last moments before the crash. Otherwise, it's a ring buffer that isn't retained. ETA: More information about the EU here: https://unece.org/media/transport/Vehicle-Regulations/press/361071 https://unece.org/media/transport/Vehicle-Regulations/press/...

tomcooks 5y ago

A copy of a zero hedge article with little to no sources, in the homepage? Ok

sildur 5y ago

The original source of this heap of trash disguised as article is summit.news. I think that should be enough.

maxehmookau 5y ago

Articles by far-right provocateurs don't belong on HN.

tomcooks 5y ago
It's not about left and right, it's about being a journalist that has done extensive research and can provide sources, or a spammy clickbaiter.
- maxehmookau 5y ago
  Normally not. But this particular author is not just “right”, but far-right. This context is highly relevant when critiquing it’s context.