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Honestly curious, what about the ideology behind crypto is not okay? Apart from the high power usage of PoW, which is an unfortunate side-effect, not really par

Honestly curious, what about the ideology behind crypto is not okay? Apart from the high power usage of PoW, which is an unfortunate side-effect, not really part of the ideology.

oezi 5y ago
The Ponzi aspect obviously. Letting gullible millions pay for the crypto barons at the top.
- danuker 5y ago
  What way of holding wealth is any better in this aspect?
  - oezi 5y ago
    Stocks because (you own part of a company which has assets and/or produces income), real estate obviously.
    - danuker 5y ago
      > Stocks At current valuations (Shiller PEs ~40), stocks are disconnected from their income. Therefore, if the Fed tapers harder or even reduces the money supply, it will crash. This leads to a "Ponzi" musical chairs aspect where investors getting in last will have bailed out the ones before them. > Real estate obviously Valuations are still heavily influenced by monetary policy, but also by intrinsic scarcity. As space runs out around desirable areas, the ways to acquire are increasingly limited to buying from an existing owner.
    - kreetx 5y ago
      Right but what effect do stocks changing hands in the stock market have to the company? Perhaps if you had enough of them you could influence the company's direction, but it's the same with some cryptocurrencies. But for the average retail investor owning stocks is the same Ponzi, no?
  - TomSwirly 5y ago
    All other forms of holding wealth. If I buy Apple stock, I have a piece of a company that rakes in billions in actual profit by turning raw materials into useful machinery. If I buy a US bond, I get interest, and it is guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the United States. If I buy gold, I own a physically rare and hard to counterfeit asset that humans have valued for thousands of years. If I have a savings account, I get interest, and the money is guaranteed by the FDIC. Even dollar bills under the mattress don't decrease in value by 10% in a single day.
    - kreetx 5y ago
      If you own, say, ADA and stake it then those staking pools run smart contracts.
    - namlem 5y ago
      Except that gold could be used for industrial purposes, so hoarding it is not only useless, but harmful.
    - nightski 5y ago
      Sure but your dollar bills under the mattress do not increase 70% in value in one year either. Volatility is not necessarily a bad thing, it means cryptocurrencies are growing. There is a good chance they will stabilize eventually.
- lobocinza 5y ago
  That ain't ideological. The first waves of crypto were driven by ideology now it's driven by market. Getting rich quick is a cult but I wouldn't put it in the same lot as the cypherpunk/libertarian early adopters.
lottin 5y ago
The idea that governments, regardless of their legitimacy or level of competence, can't be trusted to manage the money supply is anti-democratic. Because, after all, governments are also responsible for maintiaing law and order, which is even a more delicate issue since it involves the use of violence. So the government can be trusted to use violence responsibly, but it can't be trusted to manage the money supply? No, this is stupid. The implication is that governments can't be trusted and are essentially oppressive and evil. And democracy isn't a lesser evil, it's just evil. This is the basic tenet of anarcho-capitalism.
- randomhodler84 5y ago
  Are you able to find a single government, democratic or not, in human history that did not debase their currency? It’s the story of every failure of every empire. Humans, and by extension governments cannot be trusted with the money supply. It is just human nature. I don’t think control of issuance of currency is even a matter of democracy — for it is not the people that elect the chair of the central banks, the imf, the bis. People have no say in the monetary policy, it is thrust upon them by the unelected. If the individual could have a choice, would any democratic candidate be bound to follow their wishes? So, instead, we bypass this. Step outside the system where it cannot be corrupted. You trust humans and governments too much. I trust math. Math won’t let you down like humans will.
  - TomSwirly 5y ago
    So you have personally reviewed the code in each cryptocurrency you hold, and you understand all the math behind it?
    - randomhodler84 5y ago
      I certainly do. I’ve found bugs, submitted patches. I not only understand the math, but have written libraries and tools, audited cryptographic implementations and frequently communicate with other developers and engineers in the field. I have developed educational materials for folks and played with this technology a long time. I will admit I don’t grok every line of the science experiment geth (ethereum client), but I do understand the math, it is the same as Bitcoin. I haven’t been keeping up with Eth client nearly as much as BTC. Running an eth full node needs some real hardware. BTC runs on a potato.

Honestly curious, what about the ideology behind crypto is not okay? Apart from the high power usage of PoW, which is an unfortunate side-effect, not really part of the ideology.

oezi 5y ago

The Ponzi aspect obviously. Letting gullible millions pay for the crypto barons at the top.

danuker 5y ago
What way of holding wealth is any better in this aspect?
- oezi 5y ago
  Stocks because (you own part of a company which has assets and/or produces income), real estate obviously.
  - danuker 5y ago
    > Stocks At current valuations (Shiller PEs ~40), stocks are disconnected from their income. Therefore, if the Fed tapers harder or even reduces the money supply, it will crash. This leads to a "Ponzi" musical chairs aspect where investors getting in last will have bailed out the ones before them. > Real estate obviously Valuations are still heavily influenced by monetary policy, but also by intrinsic scarcity. As space runs out around desirable areas, the ways to acquire are increasingly limited to buying from an existing owner.
  - kreetx 5y ago
    Right but what effect do stocks changing hands in the stock market have to the company? Perhaps if you had enough of them you could influence the company's direction, but it's the same with some cryptocurrencies. But for the average retail investor owning stocks is the same Ponzi, no?
- TomSwirly 5y ago
  All other forms of holding wealth. If I buy Apple stock, I have a piece of a company that rakes in billions in actual profit by turning raw materials into useful machinery. If I buy a US bond, I get interest, and it is guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the United States. If I buy gold, I own a physically rare and hard to counterfeit asset that humans have valued for thousands of years. If I have a savings account, I get interest, and the money is guaranteed by the FDIC. Even dollar bills under the mattress don't decrease in value by 10% in a single day.
  - kreetx 5y ago
    If you own, say, ADA and stake it then those staking pools run smart contracts.
  - namlem 5y ago
    Except that gold could be used for industrial purposes, so hoarding it is not only useless, but harmful.
  - nightski 5y ago
    Sure but your dollar bills under the mattress do not increase 70% in value in one year either. Volatility is not necessarily a bad thing, it means cryptocurrencies are growing. There is a good chance they will stabilize eventually.
lobocinza 5y ago
That ain't ideological. The first waves of crypto were driven by ideology now it's driven by market. Getting rich quick is a cult but I wouldn't put it in the same lot as the cypherpunk/libertarian early adopters.

lottin 5y ago

The idea that governments, regardless of their legitimacy or level of competence, can't be trusted to manage the money supply is anti-democratic. Because, after all, governments are also responsible for maintiaing law and order, which is even a more delicate issue since it involves the use of violence. So the government can be trusted to use violence responsibly, but it can't be trusted to manage the money supply? No, this is stupid. The implication is that governments can't be trusted and are essentially oppressive and evil. And democracy isn't a lesser evil, it's just evil. This is the basic tenet of anarcho-capitalism.

randomhodler84 5y ago
Are you able to find a single government, democratic or not, in human history that did not debase their currency? It’s the story of every failure of every empire. Humans, and by extension governments cannot be trusted with the money supply. It is just human nature. I don’t think control of issuance of currency is even a matter of democracy — for it is not the people that elect the chair of the central banks, the imf, the bis. People have no say in the monetary policy, it is thrust upon them by the unelected. If the individual could have a choice, would any democratic candidate be bound to follow their wishes? So, instead, we bypass this. Step outside the system where it cannot be corrupted. You trust humans and governments too much. I trust math. Math won’t let you down like humans will.
- TomSwirly 5y ago
  So you have personally reviewed the code in each cryptocurrency you hold, and you understand all the math behind it?
  - randomhodler84 5y ago
    I certainly do. I’ve found bugs, submitted patches. I not only understand the math, but have written libraries and tools, audited cryptographic implementations and frequently communicate with other developers and engineers in the field. I have developed educational materials for folks and played with this technology a long time. I will admit I don’t grok every line of the science experiment geth (ethereum client), but I do understand the math, it is the same as Bitcoin. I haven’t been keeping up with Eth client nearly as much as BTC. Running an eth full node needs some real hardware. BTC runs on a potato.