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The question isn't who builds it but who orders it. Would you leave your job just to fight back against this particular dark pattern? Do you ask about this dark

The question isn't who builds it but who orders it. Would you leave your job just to fight back against this particular dark pattern? Do you ask about this dark pattern in interviews in order to make a decision about a potential employer?

sjtindell 5y ago
Good point. Especially if they tell me we’ll get $X more revenue and my RSUs will be worth that much more…not sure I would say anything to be honest. Although I feel some shame saying that.
alkonaut 5y ago
Yes and yes. People shouldn’t have to though. Instead the regulation should be set up to make it a legal risk to aid in breaking the regulation too.
thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
It wouldn't need to be individual action if we just made a union.
Aachen 5y ago
What do you mean leave your job? If I tell my boss that doing xyz is illegal and he doesn't dispute it, I'm absolutely certain he would not ask me to implement it. Certainly there will be shittier bosses that will ask anyway, demand it, and perhaps even go so far as to fire someone for not violating the law, but I should hope those in the last category are few and far between and there would be internal and/or external outcry over it. Even if you have a boss that wants to fire you over it and nobody cares internally or externally (I'd find this situation very unlikely), you'd still get unemployment benefits / severance / whatever is typical in your jurisdiction, since you were fired rather than choosing to leave yourself.
- pydry 5y ago
  Most dark patterns arent illegal. Theyre just morally dubious.
  - Aachen 5y ago
    The dark pattern we're discussing, though, is making it much harder to deny tracking than "consenting" to it, which is illegal in the EU.
- lancesells 5y ago
  In the US there are very few, if any, laws against dark patterns and data collection. The only real fine seems to be FAANG execs need to spend half a day on Zoom talking to Congress who are seeking soundbites more than change.
- kmlx 5y ago
  > If I tell my boss that doing xyz is illegal what happens when xyz isn’t illegal?
  - Aachen 5y ago
    Then we'll have a nice discussion about whether it is or not (or we ask the legal team). If it's legal then it's still up to me whether I find it okay, and then it's really my personal choice if I want to leave the company over this or if I want to try to get someone else to implement it or whatever. However, that wasn't really the point being discussed. I was specifically talking about the scenario where you're asked to do something illegal and immoral, and its illegality is not disputed by the boss or legal team or something.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  Your boss isn't going to not dispute that it's illegal. He's going to claim that they had experts look at it and it's fine.
  - Aachen 5y ago
    We work for very different companies if you expect your boss to lie outright. I'm not disputing this will exist, I'm just not sure this is the common case in skilled IT jobs.
dgellow 5y ago
I agree. The person or group taking the decision is the one responsible.

sjtindell 5y ago

Good point. Especially if they tell me we’ll get $X more revenue and my RSUs will be worth that much more…not sure I would say anything to be honest. Although I feel some shame saying that.

alkonaut 5y ago

Yes and yes. People shouldn’t have to though. Instead the regulation should be set up to make it a legal risk to aid in breaking the regulation too.

thrwyoilarticle 5y ago

It wouldn't need to be individual action if we just made a union.

Aachen 5y ago

What do you mean leave your job? If I tell my boss that doing xyz is illegal and he doesn't dispute it, I'm absolutely certain he would not ask me to implement it. Certainly there will be shittier bosses that will ask anyway, demand it, and perhaps even go so far as to fire someone for not violating the law, but I should hope those in the last category are few and far between and there would be internal and/or external outcry over it. Even if you have a boss that wants to fire you over it and nobody cares internally or externally (I'd find this situation very unlikely), you'd still get unemployment benefits / severance / whatever is typical in your jurisdiction, since you were fired rather than choosing to leave yourself.

pydry 5y ago
Most dark patterns arent illegal. Theyre just morally dubious.
- Aachen 5y ago
  The dark pattern we're discussing, though, is making it much harder to deny tracking than "consenting" to it, which is illegal in the EU.
lancesells 5y ago
In the US there are very few, if any, laws against dark patterns and data collection. The only real fine seems to be FAANG execs need to spend half a day on Zoom talking to Congress who are seeking soundbites more than change.
kmlx 5y ago
> If I tell my boss that doing xyz is illegal what happens when xyz isn’t illegal?
- Aachen 5y ago
  Then we'll have a nice discussion about whether it is or not (or we ask the legal team). If it's legal then it's still up to me whether I find it okay, and then it's really my personal choice if I want to leave the company over this or if I want to try to get someone else to implement it or whatever. However, that wasn't really the point being discussed. I was specifically talking about the scenario where you're asked to do something illegal and immoral, and its illegality is not disputed by the boss or legal team or something.
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
Your boss isn't going to not dispute that it's illegal. He's going to claim that they had experts look at it and it's fine.
- Aachen 5y ago
  We work for very different companies if you expect your boss to lie outright. I'm not disputing this will exist, I'm just not sure this is the common case in skilled IT jobs.

dgellow 5y ago

I agree. The person or group taking the decision is the one responsible.