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The US left sees far right groups as evil Nazis with only destructive motives, and far left groups as noble warriors for whom the ends of equality and social ju

The US left sees far right groups as evil Nazis with only destructive motives, and far left groups as noble warriors for whom the ends of equality and social justice justify their means. The US right sees far left groups as evil Stalinists with only destructive motives, and far right groups as noble warriors for whom the ends of security and defence of homeland justify their means. It’s very rare that you see either of the following viewpoints - both of them are made up of human detritus of the American system and hold back progress - both of them are commendable groups made up of passionate people

MarkMarine 5y ago
Because one side wants a white ehtno-state, and hand waves over the genocide that always happens when they remove an ethnic minority population, and one side wants to stop getting shot by police. It’s not quite the same.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  You took the most extreme position of the right and contrasted it with the tamest position of the left… did you mean it as a gotcha? Let’s reverse it: “One side is made up of constitutional Patriots who dislike the scale of the federal government, the other side is made up of Marxists who hand wave away the inevitable famine and ruin that results from their ideology.” I could accept a comparison between BLM and the Boogaloos because they are the least radical of their respective camps and have grievances with the police and state. But you’re comparing BLM with the pitiful number of self declared neo Nazis in the same way that the right tars BLM with the pitiful number of tankies who latch on to social justice in order to further their revolution.
  - MarkMarine 5y ago
    I’m contrasting the two groups in the article.
- jeffreyrogers 5y ago
  You should familiarize yourself with the proud boys leadership. You don't know what you're talking about. Are you seriously arguing that Enrique Tarrio[0] wants a white ethnostate? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio
  - MarkMarine 5y ago
    Yes
  - ashwagary 5y ago
    My understanding is Tarrio identified himself as white in most legal documents before joining the Proud Boys. I suspect he claims to be 'black' now because it gives that racist organization cover.
    - Ancapistani 5y ago
      Did you see the photos of him in the Wikipedia article linked? Regardless of his intent, I can't imagine him thinking he'd do well in a "white ethnostate."
vb6sp6 5y ago
> The US left sees far right groups as evil Nazis with only destructive motives If you march around synagogues with torches chanting "the jews will not replace us" while giving the roman salute, there is no bellyaching when people associate you with nazis. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/08/14/jews-will-not-replace-us-why-white-supremacists-go-after-jews/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/08...
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  They are the extreme fringe. There is also an extreme fringe on the other side of the aisle that believes white people are demons created by Yakub, the USSR did nothing wrong and China is paradise. If you’re allowed to coalesce the right into their extremists, the same should hold true for the left. At least in a society based on liberalism. I’m of the belief that fewer black folks being shot by police is a noble cause, so I feel positive about BLM. I also feel positive about some of the constitutional and militia groups because IMO the scale and corruption of the US government ALSO requires attention. I don’t like racial bigotry or communism so I will vehemently denounce such groups.
  - seba_dos1 5y ago
    > There is also an extreme fringe on the other side of the aisle that believes white people are demons created by Yakub, the USSR did nothing wrong and China is paradise. Where? I've seen the right wing extreme fringe existing in real life. Never seen what you just described. If it actually exists, it's hidden well enough to not bother me.
  - vb6sp6 5y ago
xboxnolifes 5y ago
It's truly frightening how many people cannot see this. It feels like so many people have spent zero time around people of the opposite side of the political spectrum from their self. Particularly, how can so many people criticize article after article and news story after news story for being inaccurate or misleading, then turn around and believe every word against they read for their party or against their opposing party?
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  I think it’s a prisoner’s dilemma: - tolerate your own extremists, so your own moderates can win and crush the other side’s moderates and extremists With the optimal payoff being - band together with their moderates and crush both your and their extremists The players are - Moderate L: BLM, unions - Extreme L: anarchists, communists, third worldists, Russian/Chinese intelligence - Moderate R: anti government, pro constitution - Extreme R: neo-fascists, white supremacists, Russian/Chinese intelligence
dragonwriter 5y ago
> The US left sees far right groups as evil Nazis with only destructive motives, and far left groups as noble warriors No, it doesn't. I mean, seriously on the far left, anarchists, IME, view the most dangerous groups as, starting at the worst: 1. Marxist-Leninists (aka MLs, as used by anarchists, the term tends to include any of the vanguardist descendants of Leninism) 2. Liberals 3. Fascists (Occasionally #2 and #3 are flipped) For MLs, using the above expansive terminology, it seems to be: 1. Anarchists, 2. Different vanguardist flavors than their own, 3. Liberals 4. Fascists (#3 and #4 are more likely to be equated than flipped.)
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  Leftist infighting is a legendary meme, that is true. I’m more considering ‘the left’ as the bulk of the left: anything between neoliberal and social Democrat. Similarly, when I say the right I mean anything between neoliberal and national conservative. Though I’d consider national conservatives to be too right wing for my tastes (since I skew left) just as socdems are too left wing for conservative tastes.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > I’m more considering ‘the left’ as the bulk of the left: anything between neoliberal and social Democrat. That's center-right (neoliberal) to center-left (social democrat), not the “bulk of the left”.
    - gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
      Neoliberal includes both Tony Blair on the left and Thatcher on the right. Trudeau sits between them in the (201X-202X) dead centre. Tony Blair was more right economically than the old guard of labour (who I would consider squarely left wing) but it was balanced out by his social and welfare policies. It’s just that pre WW1 the centre was to the right of now (classical liberalism) and post WW2 the centre was to the left of now (welfare statism). 200 years ago liberals were leftists and reactionaries were quite ordinary.

MarkMarine 5y ago

Because one side wants a white ehtno-state, and hand waves over the genocide that always happens when they remove an ethnic minority population, and one side wants to stop getting shot by police. It’s not quite the same.

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
You took the most extreme position of the right and contrasted it with the tamest position of the left… did you mean it as a gotcha? Let’s reverse it: “One side is made up of constitutional Patriots who dislike the scale of the federal government, the other side is made up of Marxists who hand wave away the inevitable famine and ruin that results from their ideology.” I could accept a comparison between BLM and the Boogaloos because they are the least radical of their respective camps and have grievances with the police and state. But you’re comparing BLM with the pitiful number of self declared neo Nazis in the same way that the right tars BLM with the pitiful number of tankies who latch on to social justice in order to further their revolution.
- MarkMarine 5y ago
  I’m contrasting the two groups in the article.
jeffreyrogers 5y ago
You should familiarize yourself with the proud boys leadership. You don't know what you're talking about. Are you seriously arguing that Enrique Tarrio[0] wants a white ethnostate? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio
- MarkMarine 5y ago
  Yes
- ashwagary 5y ago
  My understanding is Tarrio identified himself as white in most legal documents before joining the Proud Boys. I suspect he claims to be 'black' now because it gives that racist organization cover.
  - Ancapistani 5y ago
    Did you see the photos of him in the Wikipedia article linked? Regardless of his intent, I can't imagine him thinking he'd do well in a "white ethnostate."

vb6sp6 5y ago

> The US left sees far right groups as evil Nazis with only destructive motives If you march around synagogues with torches chanting "the jews will not replace us" while giving the roman salute, there is no bellyaching when people associate you with nazis. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/08/14/jews-will-not-replace-us-why-white-supremacists-go-after-jews/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/08...

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
They are the extreme fringe. There is also an extreme fringe on the other side of the aisle that believes white people are demons created by Yakub, the USSR did nothing wrong and China is paradise. If you’re allowed to coalesce the right into their extremists, the same should hold true for the left. At least in a society based on liberalism. I’m of the belief that fewer black folks being shot by police is a noble cause, so I feel positive about BLM. I also feel positive about some of the constitutional and militia groups because IMO the scale and corruption of the US government ALSO requires attention. I don’t like racial bigotry or communism so I will vehemently denounce such groups.
- seba_dos1 5y ago
  > There is also an extreme fringe on the other side of the aisle that believes white people are demons created by Yakub, the USSR did nothing wrong and China is paradise. Where? I've seen the right wing extreme fringe existing in real life. Never seen what you just described. If it actually exists, it's hidden well enough to not bother me.
- vb6sp6 5y ago

xboxnolifes 5y ago

It's truly frightening how many people cannot see this. It feels like so many people have spent zero time around people of the opposite side of the political spectrum from their self. Particularly, how can so many people criticize article after article and news story after news story for being inaccurate or misleading, then turn around and believe every word against they read for their party or against their opposing party?

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
I think it’s a prisoner’s dilemma: - tolerate your own extremists, so your own moderates can win and crush the other side’s moderates and extremists With the optimal payoff being - band together with their moderates and crush both your and their extremists The players are - Moderate L: BLM, unions - Extreme L: anarchists, communists, third worldists, Russian/Chinese intelligence - Moderate R: anti government, pro constitution - Extreme R: neo-fascists, white supremacists, Russian/Chinese intelligence

dragonwriter 5y ago

> The US left sees far right groups as evil Nazis with only destructive motives, and far left groups as noble warriors No, it doesn't. I mean, seriously on the far left, anarchists, IME, view the most dangerous groups as, starting at the worst: 1. Marxist-Leninists (aka MLs, as used by anarchists, the term tends to include any of the vanguardist descendants of Leninism) 2. Liberals 3. Fascists (Occasionally #2 and #3 are flipped) For MLs, using the above expansive terminology, it seems to be: 1. Anarchists, 2. Different vanguardist flavors than their own, 3. Liberals 4. Fascists (#3 and #4 are more likely to be equated than flipped.)

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
Leftist infighting is a legendary meme, that is true. I’m more considering ‘the left’ as the bulk of the left: anything between neoliberal and social Democrat. Similarly, when I say the right I mean anything between neoliberal and national conservative. Though I’d consider national conservatives to be too right wing for my tastes (since I skew left) just as socdems are too left wing for conservative tastes.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > I’m more considering ‘the left’ as the bulk of the left: anything between neoliberal and social Democrat. That's center-right (neoliberal) to center-left (social democrat), not the “bulk of the left”.
  - gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
    Neoliberal includes both Tony Blair on the left and Thatcher on the right. Trudeau sits between them in the (201X-202X) dead centre. Tony Blair was more right economically than the old guard of labour (who I would consider squarely left wing) but it was balanced out by his social and welfare policies. It’s just that pre WW1 the centre was to the right of now (classical liberalism) and post WW2 the centre was to the left of now (welfare statism). 200 years ago liberals were leftists and reactionaries were quite ordinary.