4 ms·

It's sort of amusing to continually hear these arguments because they always miss the main point: It doesn't matter what you, as a dev, prefers or envisions. It

It's sort of amusing to continually hear these arguments because they always miss the main point: It doesn't matter what you, as a dev, prefers or envisions. It's about what the user wants. Today they prefer native apps. They look and generally perform better. There may be a day when web apps catch up but it will be up to the user to decide which path is taken.

rnemo 15y ago
This is an important point, the users decide the experience of their computers to a great extent, whether they understand what they're doing or not. Which brings up another point, that for web apps to become more popular than native apps, internet connectivity is going to have to get much better everywhere. The average user doesn't like it much when a program they use doesn't work at full functionality because they don't have an internet connection, and they definitely wont like it if they cant access their apps at all.
- beaumartinez 15y ago
  HTML5 has a bunch of features[1] just for that—providing the same experience whether you're on or offline. [1] http://diveintohtml5.org/offline.html http://diveintohtml5.org/offline.html
drewcrawford 15y ago
> It doesn't matter what you, as a dev, prefers or envisions. It's about what the user wants. That's a nice theory. Here's the reality: 1) Client wants to build 4 native apps for Android, iPhone, iPad, Blackberry, WinMo7. 2) Client is in sticker shock that it will cost $100k+ to roll out 3) Client does a bit of googling, drawn like a deer in headlights to the Titanium showcase page 4) Client ditches native apps, goes the Titanium route because it's cheaper, doesn't realize that most of those are funded directly or indirectly by Titanium 5) Client fails to monetize application because users think it sucks. 6) Chalks it up to "the market isn't ready", repeat from step 1. This story is roughly 75% of the mobile contracting market by volume, although for obvious reasons <1% in terms of app sales. It comes up a lot in enterprise mobile dev as well. The moral of the story is that it's much easier to focus on the upfront development cost and ignore the unquantifiable murky cost of ending up with a bad product. It's the same thought process behind e.g. credit card debt--present pleasure for future pain is easy to rationalize.
- SomeCallMeTim 15y ago
  >5) Client fails to monetize application because users think it sucks. Cute theory, but lots of good apps failed to get monetized as well, even when users like them (say 4.5 stars, and lots of great reviews?). The failure can be in the promotion or marketing of apps at this point. There are too many apps out there for good apps to be discoverable without promotion. Also, good and bad UI can be written in native and HTML/JavaScript. Some apps really don't need native to be good. It really depends on the app; the content and the UI design really trump fancy native-only effects.
- technoslut 15y ago
  I infer from your list that you're talking about small businesses. They are your customer and I believe that the customer is always right. The employee may be the tail that wags the dog but they do not pay you. They should be aware of the pitfalls of web apps: 1. They're generally not as fast as native web apps. At the very least they don't appear to be so. 2. A user/employee is more familiar with apps that are native and they will understand them better than a web app. It is up to your customer to know what they're willing to sacrifice, immediate cash or the quality and recognition of their product in the long run.
- tzm 15y ago
  Your analysis on Titanium development being cheaper and "sucks" is false. It's the archer not the arrow. My company builds full stack solutions for clients with projects of $50k - $100k. We work in obj-c, java, javascript and c, with the bulk of development dedicated to Titanium. You are patently wrong in your assessment and seem to miss some major aspects of the Titanium architecture.
  - drewcrawford 15y ago
    Let me give you just one data point backing my "patently wrong" assessment: Read this documentation: http://developer.appcelerator.com/apidoc/mobile/1.4/Titanium.UI.iPad-module http://developer.appcelerator.com/apidoc/mobile/1.4/Titanium... and tell me how I should use custom fonts. I reported this issue in early July.

rnemo 15y ago

This is an important point, the users decide the experience of their computers to a great extent, whether they understand what they're doing or not. Which brings up another point, that for web apps to become more popular than native apps, internet connectivity is going to have to get much better everywhere. The average user doesn't like it much when a program they use doesn't work at full functionality because they don't have an internet connection, and they definitely wont like it if they cant access their apps at all.

beaumartinez 15y ago
HTML5 has a bunch of features[1] just for that—providing the same experience whether you're on or offline. [1] http://diveintohtml5.org/offline.html http://diveintohtml5.org/offline.html

drewcrawford 15y ago

> It doesn't matter what you, as a dev, prefers or envisions. It's about what the user wants. That's a nice theory. Here's the reality: 1) Client wants to build 4 native apps for Android, iPhone, iPad, Blackberry, WinMo7. 2) Client is in sticker shock that it will cost $100k+ to roll out 3) Client does a bit of googling, drawn like a deer in headlights to the Titanium showcase page 4) Client ditches native apps, goes the Titanium route because it's cheaper, doesn't realize that most of those are funded directly or indirectly by Titanium 5) Client fails to monetize application because users think it sucks. 6) Chalks it up to "the market isn't ready", repeat from step 1. This story is roughly 75% of the mobile contracting market by volume, although for obvious reasons <1% in terms of app sales. It comes up a lot in enterprise mobile dev as well. The moral of the story is that it's much easier to focus on the upfront development cost and ignore the unquantifiable murky cost of ending up with a bad product. It's the same thought process behind e.g. credit card debt--present pleasure for future pain is easy to rationalize.

SomeCallMeTim 15y ago
>5) Client fails to monetize application because users think it sucks. Cute theory, but lots of good apps failed to get monetized as well, even when users like them (say 4.5 stars, and lots of great reviews?). The failure can be in the promotion or marketing of apps at this point. There are too many apps out there for good apps to be discoverable without promotion. Also, good and bad UI can be written in native and HTML/JavaScript. Some apps really don't need native to be good. It really depends on the app; the content and the UI design really trump fancy native-only effects.
technoslut 15y ago
I infer from your list that you're talking about small businesses. They are your customer and I believe that the customer is always right. The employee may be the tail that wags the dog but they do not pay you. They should be aware of the pitfalls of web apps: 1. They're generally not as fast as native web apps. At the very least they don't appear to be so. 2. A user/employee is more familiar with apps that are native and they will understand them better than a web app. It is up to your customer to know what they're willing to sacrifice, immediate cash or the quality and recognition of their product in the long run.
tzm 15y ago
Your analysis on Titanium development being cheaper and "sucks" is false. It's the archer not the arrow. My company builds full stack solutions for clients with projects of $50k - $100k. We work in obj-c, java, javascript and c, with the bulk of development dedicated to Titanium. You are patently wrong in your assessment and seem to miss some major aspects of the Titanium architecture.
- drewcrawford 15y ago
  Let me give you just one data point backing my "patently wrong" assessment: Read this documentation: http://developer.appcelerator.com/apidoc/mobile/1.4/Titanium.UI.iPad-module http://developer.appcelerator.com/apidoc/mobile/1.4/Titanium... and tell me how I should use custom fonts. I reported this issue in early July.