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I've been really grateful for airlines like Qatar Airways continuing to run their mostly empty flights. I've been on a flight with just 8 people in economy & bu

I've been really grateful for airlines like Qatar Airways continuing to run their mostly empty flights. I've been on a flight with just 8 people in economy & business and most recently one with 30. I know people can call it wasteful, most things we do are wasteful, but it really means a lot when it's already a huge headache to get the paperwork to board the flight and I can't imagine having to worry about the flight being cancelled.

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
I don't understand how "we didn't sell enough seats" is a legit reason to cancel a flight. If I book a flight, I'm not getting that money back if I can't fly for any reason. But the airline can just decide "nah, I don't feel like upholding my part of the contract"?
- epa 5y ago
  You need to read the terms and conditions you agreed to when you book.
- sho_hn 5y ago
  This isn't true. You can refund on flight cancellation.
  - pb7 5y ago
    He’s saying if he books the ticket and decides that he doesn’t want to fly for whatever reason, he’s not getting his money back if the flight doesn’t get canceled but that doesn’t seem to be the case for the airline.
    - skohan 5y ago
      Isn't that generally the case? I have never seen a situation where the airline cancelled a flight and didn't have to refund the passengers or offer another flight. Maybe a secondary/discount travel agency would make it hard to get a refund, but I'm pretty sure an airline can't just not fly you and keep your money. I was refunded a flight just last week in the US. And in Europe, there are laws on the books that the airline has to take care of you if there's an extensive delay. For instance, they have to pay for a meal at the airport if you have to wait for more than a few extra hours, and put you up at an airport if it's going to be overnight or offer a replacement train ticket.
      - pb7 5y ago
        I think I’m still not being clear. The passenger can’t change their mind and get a refund if they decide they don’t want to fly anymore even if the flight goes on as scheduled. The airline can change their mind and not provide the flight (and offer refund but that’s beside the point) if they decide they don’t want to fly as scheduled because it’s not profitable for them. It’s a one sided contract. The airline has my money guaranteed (unless they decide they don’t want it) but I am not guaranteed to have the flight. It’s not about getting refunded if the flight gets canceled.
        skohan 5y ago
        Most airlines offer refundable tickets which cost more. If you opt for a lower priced ticket without the option to change or refund, that’s the trade off you’re making
        pb7 5y ago
        You have to pay more for fully refundable whereas all tickets are refundable by the airline if they don't feel like holding up their end of the contract. :-)
        skohan 5y ago
        When you buy the non-refundable tickets, you agree to a contract in which they have unilateral rights to refusal. There is no obligation that every contract should enure equally to both parties :-)
        pb7 5y ago
        Yeah, I definitely get that. Reminder that I wasn't the original person that made this point, I was simply clarifying it for them because I agreed with it. I am fully aware of the terms of the agreement when I buy flights but that doesn't make it any less hostile to customers. There aren't any alternatives to flying over oceans or even just long distances.
- SR2Z 5y ago
  The contract is what gives them the right to cancel. You can buy a flight ticket that won't be cancelled but you'd have to pay the premium required to charter the whole plane.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    Generally contracts, especially B2C preformulated, non-negotiable T&Cs, are held to some standard of whether they're conscionable, reasonable, non-surprising etc. How a contract that allows the company to unilaterally back out supposedly passes those tests in the EU boggles my mind.
- ritchiea 5y ago
  Actually right now in Europe most (maybe all?) flights can be rescheduled for free in response to the pandemic. Is that not the case elsewhere?
TheDudeMan 5y ago
Sending a flight that unexpectedly turns out to be nearly empty is different from scheduling a flight that you know will be nearly empty. The latter would only happen due to wrong incentives. In this case, it sounds like the problem is that access to airport slots is based on how many flights you run or the consistency thereof. Why not make access based on money? Money is universal. If you pay the airport, you get the slot. If you buy the slot for the month and then don't need it one day, you wasted some of the slot money, but you need not send an empty flight.
- pmyteh 5y ago
  A pure-cash system provides incentives for incumbent carriers to buy (scarce) slots and leave them empty to limit competition. British Airways would definitely do this at Heathrow if allowed, for example. Also, it potentially reduces actual passenger numbers, lowering the airport operator's take from duty-free and catering, which I suspect pays much more than the slot fees.
  - chrismorgan 5y ago
    Perhaps you could add a clause “if you don’t fly the slot, then you pay most of what you would have spent on the flight”—high enough to ruin the perverse incentive, but low enough to encourage not making the flight unnecessarily. And perhaps an arrangement that most of the surplus goes to some charity or other.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
    They should auction the slots every month. There should be no grandfathering or other incentive to hoard.
    - skohan 5y ago
      Slots for the next month? People book flights months in advance.
    - bushbaba 5y ago
      That could end up raising the cost of flying
skohan 5y ago
Flights are an incredibly CO2 intensive activity. It's nice that it's convenient to you and the other seven people, but are the tradeoffs really worth it?
- neither_color 5y ago
  For all we know GPs airplane was turning around from dropping off a full passenger load, or was on its way to pick up a full load at a hub airport so yes an empty flight(loaded with less fuel than a full flight) is necessary sometimes to keep the network going. The fact that empty flights are necessary is a sad side effect of the system, but I wouldnt feel guilty as an individual about being on a particular empty flight.
  - skohan 5y ago
    That might be the case for any of these individual flights. My intent was to refute the other commenter's general point that it's a nice thing for airlines to run empty flights for the convenience of the passenger.
    - sumedh 5y ago
      So what is your solution, not to fly if there are not enough passengers. Should the customer change all his plans if the plane is not full?
      - skohan 5y ago
        Well no, typically you would be put on a later flight or an alternate route. Maybe we should be willing to accept a non-zero chance that our plans will be disrupted by several hours to avoid burning massive amounts of extra carbon.
        zarzavat 5y ago
        It’s not so easy anymore. You need PCR for entry to most countries. The PCR has a maximum validity period, usually 72 or 48 hours. If your flight is cancelled you may need to take a new PCR. At least in the UK it’s not easy to book a PCR at short notice (emergency PCRs exist but are very expensive), so you may need to wait a week before you can fly again. There may also be testing/quarantine arrangements that you may need to rearrange in the arrival country.
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Flying to Buenos Aires from Rio, both LAN and Emirates had flights that cost nearly the same. I picked Emirates and was very pleased to find I had an entire row all to myself. Since they don't have enough traffic to fly to both Brazil and Argentina from Dubai, they fly to Rio and then on the BA, leaving that flight less than half full. My past experience with LAN was that they packed people in like US carriers so it wasn't a difficult decision to make.
- fy20 5y ago
  My wife used to work for Emirates, and this was her favourite route as you had a long layover in both Rio and Buenos Aires :-) It meant you were away from home for almost a week, but it's much better to be away doing this than stuck on short flights to India or Bangladesh for a week (where you fly there and back without a layover).
dehrmann 5y ago
To be fair, have you seen what air freight rates look like right now? That flight might not actually be empty.

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

I don't understand how "we didn't sell enough seats" is a legit reason to cancel a flight. If I book a flight, I'm not getting that money back if I can't fly for any reason. But the airline can just decide "nah, I don't feel like upholding my part of the contract"?

epa 5y ago
You need to read the terms and conditions you agreed to when you book.
sho_hn 5y ago
This isn't true. You can refund on flight cancellation.
- pb7 5y ago
  He’s saying if he books the ticket and decides that he doesn’t want to fly for whatever reason, he’s not getting his money back if the flight doesn’t get canceled but that doesn’t seem to be the case for the airline.
  - skohan 5y ago
    Isn't that generally the case? I have never seen a situation where the airline cancelled a flight and didn't have to refund the passengers or offer another flight. Maybe a secondary/discount travel agency would make it hard to get a refund, but I'm pretty sure an airline can't just not fly you and keep your money. I was refunded a flight just last week in the US. And in Europe, there are laws on the books that the airline has to take care of you if there's an extensive delay. For instance, they have to pay for a meal at the airport if you have to wait for more than a few extra hours, and put you up at an airport if it's going to be overnight or offer a replacement train ticket.
    - pb7 5y ago
      I think I’m still not being clear. The passenger can’t change their mind and get a refund if they decide they don’t want to fly anymore even if the flight goes on as scheduled. The airline can change their mind and not provide the flight (and offer refund but that’s beside the point) if they decide they don’t want to fly as scheduled because it’s not profitable for them. It’s a one sided contract. The airline has my money guaranteed (unless they decide they don’t want it) but I am not guaranteed to have the flight. It’s not about getting refunded if the flight gets canceled.
      - skohan 5y ago
        Most airlines offer refundable tickets which cost more. If you opt for a lower priced ticket without the option to change or refund, that’s the trade off you’re making
        pb7 5y ago
        You have to pay more for fully refundable whereas all tickets are refundable by the airline if they don't feel like holding up their end of the contract. :-)
        skohan 5y ago
        When you buy the non-refundable tickets, you agree to a contract in which they have unilateral rights to refusal. There is no obligation that every contract should enure equally to both parties :-)
        pb7 5y ago
        Yeah, I definitely get that. Reminder that I wasn't the original person that made this point, I was simply clarifying it for them because I agreed with it. I am fully aware of the terms of the agreement when I buy flights but that doesn't make it any less hostile to customers. There aren't any alternatives to flying over oceans or even just long distances.
SR2Z 5y ago
The contract is what gives them the right to cancel. You can buy a flight ticket that won't be cancelled but you'd have to pay the premium required to charter the whole plane.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  Generally contracts, especially B2C preformulated, non-negotiable T&Cs, are held to some standard of whether they're conscionable, reasonable, non-surprising etc. How a contract that allows the company to unilaterally back out supposedly passes those tests in the EU boggles my mind.
ritchiea 5y ago
Actually right now in Europe most (maybe all?) flights can be rescheduled for free in response to the pandemic. Is that not the case elsewhere?

TheDudeMan 5y ago

Sending a flight that unexpectedly turns out to be nearly empty is different from scheduling a flight that you know will be nearly empty. The latter would only happen due to wrong incentives. In this case, it sounds like the problem is that access to airport slots is based on how many flights you run or the consistency thereof. Why not make access based on money? Money is universal. If you pay the airport, you get the slot. If you buy the slot for the month and then don't need it one day, you wasted some of the slot money, but you need not send an empty flight.

pmyteh 5y ago
A pure-cash system provides incentives for incumbent carriers to buy (scarce) slots and leave them empty to limit competition. British Airways would definitely do this at Heathrow if allowed, for example. Also, it potentially reduces actual passenger numbers, lowering the airport operator's take from duty-free and catering, which I suspect pays much more than the slot fees.
- chrismorgan 5y ago
  Perhaps you could add a clause “if you don’t fly the slot, then you pay most of what you would have spent on the flight”—high enough to ruin the perverse incentive, but low enough to encourage not making the flight unnecessarily. And perhaps an arrangement that most of the surplus goes to some charity or other.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  They should auction the slots every month. There should be no grandfathering or other incentive to hoard.
  - skohan 5y ago
    Slots for the next month? People book flights months in advance.
  - bushbaba 5y ago
    That could end up raising the cost of flying

skohan 5y ago

Flights are an incredibly CO2 intensive activity. It's nice that it's convenient to you and the other seven people, but are the tradeoffs really worth it?

neither_color 5y ago
For all we know GPs airplane was turning around from dropping off a full passenger load, or was on its way to pick up a full load at a hub airport so yes an empty flight(loaded with less fuel than a full flight) is necessary sometimes to keep the network going. The fact that empty flights are necessary is a sad side effect of the system, but I wouldnt feel guilty as an individual about being on a particular empty flight.
- skohan 5y ago
  That might be the case for any of these individual flights. My intent was to refute the other commenter's general point that it's a nice thing for airlines to run empty flights for the convenience of the passenger.
  - sumedh 5y ago
    So what is your solution, not to fly if there are not enough passengers. Should the customer change all his plans if the plane is not full?
    - skohan 5y ago
      Well no, typically you would be put on a later flight or an alternate route. Maybe we should be willing to accept a non-zero chance that our plans will be disrupted by several hours to avoid burning massive amounts of extra carbon.
      - zarzavat 5y ago
        It’s not so easy anymore. You need PCR for entry to most countries. The PCR has a maximum validity period, usually 72 or 48 hours. If your flight is cancelled you may need to take a new PCR. At least in the UK it’s not easy to book a PCR at short notice (emergency PCRs exist but are very expensive), so you may need to wait a week before you can fly again. There may also be testing/quarantine arrangements that you may need to rearrange in the arrival country.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

Flying to Buenos Aires from Rio, both LAN and Emirates had flights that cost nearly the same. I picked Emirates and was very pleased to find I had an entire row all to myself. Since they don't have enough traffic to fly to both Brazil and Argentina from Dubai, they fly to Rio and then on the BA, leaving that flight less than half full. My past experience with LAN was that they packed people in like US carriers so it wasn't a difficult decision to make.

fy20 5y ago
My wife used to work for Emirates, and this was her favourite route as you had a long layover in both Rio and Buenos Aires :-) It meant you were away from home for almost a week, but it's much better to be away doing this than stuck on short flights to India or Bangladesh for a week (where you fly there and back without a layover).

dehrmann 5y ago

To be fair, have you seen what air freight rates look like right now? That flight might not actually be empty.