4 ms·

As others have mentioned, the idea that there is no evidence that it doesn’t work is completely invalid. The onus of proof is on the person making the claim. I

by dann0 5y ago

As others have mentioned, the idea that there is no evidence that it doesn’t work is completely invalid. The onus of proof is on the person making the claim. It’s on the homeopaths to provide evidence that it does work. Many millions of dollars have been wasted trying to create this proof, but it has never stood up to basic scrutiny. So it is therefore logical to assert that homeopathy doesn’t do what it claims to be able to do. Further, many of the arguments used to justify the use of homeopathy aren’t internally consistent and are based on concepts that have no scientific validity. The common distrust of conventional medicine and the assumption of Doctors and Big Pharma colluding to supply pharmaceuticals is patently ridiculous. This is in a system where Drs, pathology specimen collectors, pathologists, pharmacists, and pharmaceutical manufacturers are seperate entities with minimal contact between them. However, the homeopathy practitioner is uncritically allowed to be the sole specimen collector and analyst, the only diagnoser, and the only prescriber and dispenser of “treatments”. They are also the only person that reviews the “treatment”. A homeopath is allowed and in fact encouraged to mark their own homework, while a network of specialists at arm’s length is treated with deep suspicion. Does this make sense? No.

jelliclesfarm 5y ago
So many things said here. https://advocacy.sba.gov/2020/01/27/homeopathy-industry-threatened-by-new-fda-guidance/ https://advocacy.sba.gov/2020/01/27/homeopathy-industry-thre... [..] According to the National Institute of Health, more than 6 million people in the United States use homeopathy to treat specific health conditions, and over 200 million people use homeopathy on regular basis worldwide.[..] So yes, millions of people. If you really want to have a proper discussion, I can participate. I don’t want this to be a random slinging match. Let’s use the time we spend here wisely.
- dann0 5y ago
  Millions of people pray, eat meat and smoke. Doesn’t make it right or wrong. Provide proof of any claim made by homeopathy and not only will you win this argument, you’ll be a very rich person. It’s foolish to argue with someone that isn’t going to act in good faith and has actively ignored reason and facts. Unless you can show me peer reviewed, academically robust evidence that your claims are true, there is no point continuing this conversation.
  - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
    - dann0 5y ago
      Indeed I do. I have deep knowledge of the process in two markets. I also have a very good knowledge of the homeopathic industry. There have been thousands of homeopathy clinical trials. None has ever proven any effectiveness beyond placebo. So, I asked not for pharmaceutical industry level studies, but for academic level - that’s a much lower bar. Homeopathy will never met the requirements of pharmaceutical testing, which, for other readers, is why they are sold as as supplements. They pose minimal risk as their are no active ingredients. That does not mean that they do anything. It means they do nothing or nothing harmful. The reason that you’re resorting to ad hominem attack and twisting my statements is that you can’t demonstrate any effectiveness. You have faith in the idea of homeopathy and no amount of proof will ever dissuade you. You didn’t need fact or proof to believe it works, so no fact or proof will change your mind. While I really don’t care what you believe, but don’t position your opinions and insubstantial faith as fact. It isn’t based on any fact. You might also like to consider holding your fellows to the same standard as your foes. Why do you let homeopathy practitioners operate in an extreme version of what you falsely criticise conventional medicine? Why not do some reading on the opposite perspective and learn why we challenge homeopathy? Don’t be stuck in an echo chamber. I sincerely hope that you don’t need to rely solely on homeopathy to cure a serious illness. I don’t care if you use it along side other conventional treatments because it does nothing and it is impossible for it to do so.
      - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
        You said you’d have to be foolish. I said that you probably shouldn’t think of yourself as foolish. It’s not ad hominem. I am not going to address your personal comments. Having said that..you said [..] Indeed I do. I have deep knowledge of the process in two markets. I also have a very good knowledge of the homeopathic industry. There have been thousands of homeopathy clinical trials. None has ever proven any effectiveness beyond placebo. So, I asked not for pharmaceutical industry level studies, but for academic level - that’s a much lower bar.[..] There is not enough information. Can you elaborate about your ‘deep knowledge’ and what is your ‘good knowledge of the homeopathic industry’? What ‘two markets’? Links? Meanwhile: https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2018/cost-of-clinical-trials-for-new-drug-FDA-approval-are-fraction-of-total-tab https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2018/cost-of-clinical-trials-fo... [..] Clinical trials that support FDA approvals of new drugs have a median cost of $19 million, according to a new study by a team including researchers from Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.[..] https://www.sofpromed.com/how-much-does-a-clinical-trial-cost https://www.sofpromed.com/how-much-does-a-clinical-trial-cos... [..] How much does a clinical trial cost? The average cost of phase 1, 2, and 3 clinical trials across therapeutic areas is around $4, 13, and 20 million respectively. Pivotal (phase 3) studies for new drugs approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) of the United States cost a median of $41,117 per patient. The above-mentioned cost estimates across therapeutic areas were reported by Aylin Sertkaya et al., in a report submitted to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, containing Table 1 below.[..]
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  Millions of people are being placebo'd by literally nothing except water. Homeopathic remedies are water, nothing more. Supporters claim there is some kind of special "structure" that water remembers. A phenomenon with no plausible basis whatsoever. A phenomenon which cannot be studied, observed, or falsified, yet one which can coincidentally be controlled to perfection by companies who make lots of money on their special bottled water. Homeopathy is exactly equivalent to magic, which also works on millions of people! Tarot cards, psychic readings, crystal energy, aura repair, etc. All of these things are very successful in making millions of people FEEL better every year. The placebo effect is legitimate and powerful.
  - dllthomas 5y ago
    Sometimes not even water - I saw lozenges marketed as homeopathic. Maybe the water remembers (it doesn't), but we're supposed to believe that it then passes that memory to the sugar crystals in a way that's pharmaceutically useful and conveniently manufacturable? What an astonishing happenstance!
  - 6510 5y ago
    > Supporters claim there is some kind of special "structure" that water remembers. Indeed. > A phenomenon with no plausible basis whatsoever. I haven't tried this: https://www.google.com/search?q=the+rice+experiment&sxsrf=&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=&biw=1216&bih=586&dpr=1.58 https://www.google.com/search?q=the+rice+experiment&sxsrf=&s... I have no opinion about it either.

by dann0 5y ago

jelliclesfarm 5y ago

So many things said here. https://advocacy.sba.gov/2020/01/27/homeopathy-industry-threatened-by-new-fda-guidance/ https://advocacy.sba.gov/2020/01/27/homeopathy-industry-thre... [..] According to the National Institute of Health, more than 6 million people in the United States use homeopathy to treat specific health conditions, and over 200 million people use homeopathy on regular basis worldwide.[..] So yes, millions of people. If you really want to have a proper discussion, I can participate. I don’t want this to be a random slinging match. Let’s use the time we spend here wisely.

dann0 5y ago
Millions of people pray, eat meat and smoke. Doesn’t make it right or wrong. Provide proof of any claim made by homeopathy and not only will you win this argument, you’ll be a very rich person. It’s foolish to argue with someone that isn’t going to act in good faith and has actively ignored reason and facts. Unless you can show me peer reviewed, academically robust evidence that your claims are true, there is no point continuing this conversation.
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
  - dann0 5y ago
    Indeed I do. I have deep knowledge of the process in two markets. I also have a very good knowledge of the homeopathic industry. There have been thousands of homeopathy clinical trials. None has ever proven any effectiveness beyond placebo. So, I asked not for pharmaceutical industry level studies, but for academic level - that’s a much lower bar. Homeopathy will never met the requirements of pharmaceutical testing, which, for other readers, is why they are sold as as supplements. They pose minimal risk as their are no active ingredients. That does not mean that they do anything. It means they do nothing or nothing harmful. The reason that you’re resorting to ad hominem attack and twisting my statements is that you can’t demonstrate any effectiveness. You have faith in the idea of homeopathy and no amount of proof will ever dissuade you. You didn’t need fact or proof to believe it works, so no fact or proof will change your mind. While I really don’t care what you believe, but don’t position your opinions and insubstantial faith as fact. It isn’t based on any fact. You might also like to consider holding your fellows to the same standard as your foes. Why do you let homeopathy practitioners operate in an extreme version of what you falsely criticise conventional medicine? Why not do some reading on the opposite perspective and learn why we challenge homeopathy? Don’t be stuck in an echo chamber. I sincerely hope that you don’t need to rely solely on homeopathy to cure a serious illness. I don’t care if you use it along side other conventional treatments because it does nothing and it is impossible for it to do so.
    - jelliclesfarm 5y ago
      You said you’d have to be foolish. I said that you probably shouldn’t think of yourself as foolish. It’s not ad hominem. I am not going to address your personal comments. Having said that..you said [..] Indeed I do. I have deep knowledge of the process in two markets. I also have a very good knowledge of the homeopathic industry. There have been thousands of homeopathy clinical trials. None has ever proven any effectiveness beyond placebo. So, I asked not for pharmaceutical industry level studies, but for academic level - that’s a much lower bar.[..] There is not enough information. Can you elaborate about your ‘deep knowledge’ and what is your ‘good knowledge of the homeopathic industry’? What ‘two markets’? Links? Meanwhile: https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2018/cost-of-clinical-trials-for-new-drug-FDA-approval-are-fraction-of-total-tab https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2018/cost-of-clinical-trials-fo... [..] Clinical trials that support FDA approvals of new drugs have a median cost of $19 million, according to a new study by a team including researchers from Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.[..] https://www.sofpromed.com/how-much-does-a-clinical-trial-cost https://www.sofpromed.com/how-much-does-a-clinical-trial-cos... [..] How much does a clinical trial cost? The average cost of phase 1, 2, and 3 clinical trials across therapeutic areas is around $4, 13, and 20 million respectively. Pivotal (phase 3) studies for new drugs approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) of the United States cost a median of $41,117 per patient. The above-mentioned cost estimates across therapeutic areas were reported by Aylin Sertkaya et al., in a report submitted to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, containing Table 1 below.[..]
nate_meurer 5y ago
Millions of people are being placebo'd by literally nothing except water. Homeopathic remedies are water, nothing more. Supporters claim there is some kind of special "structure" that water remembers. A phenomenon with no plausible basis whatsoever. A phenomenon which cannot be studied, observed, or falsified, yet one which can coincidentally be controlled to perfection by companies who make lots of money on their special bottled water. Homeopathy is exactly equivalent to magic, which also works on millions of people! Tarot cards, psychic readings, crystal energy, aura repair, etc. All of these things are very successful in making millions of people FEEL better every year. The placebo effect is legitimate and powerful.
- dllthomas 5y ago
  Sometimes not even water - I saw lozenges marketed as homeopathic. Maybe the water remembers (it doesn't), but we're supposed to believe that it then passes that memory to the sugar crystals in a way that's pharmaceutically useful and conveniently manufacturable? What an astonishing happenstance!
- 6510 5y ago
  > Supporters claim there is some kind of special "structure" that water remembers. Indeed. > A phenomenon with no plausible basis whatsoever. I haven't tried this: https://www.google.com/search?q=the+rice+experiment&sxsrf=&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=&biw=1216&bih=586&dpr=1.58 https://www.google.com/search?q=the+rice+experiment&sxsrf=&s... I have no opinion about it either.