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I've been involved in conversations with ISPs in different countries who are required by law to intercept their customers traffic. On one particular occasion I

I've been involved in conversations with ISPs in different countries who are required by law to intercept their customers traffic. On one particular occasion I remember being told by an ISP in Germany that they wouldn't buy from us unless we developed a feature that allowed them to snoop on their users. It's called 'lawful interception'. We developed this feature and sold them equipment. Am I a bad person? Where do you draw the line? ISPs all over the world are looking at their users' traffic. Some of them are doing it nefariously while others are being required by law to do so against their will. It's shouldn't be the job of a vendor to determine right from wrong. Before you go condemning networking vendors think about weapons manufacturers. American companies routinely sell guns to countries that use them against their own citizens. And nothing comes of it.

0x12 15y ago
> Before you go condemning networking vendors think about weapons manufacturers. American companies routinely sell guns to countries that use them against their own citizens. Yes, and that is something that ought to be illegal too. Whether you're a bad person or not is not for me to say, you can make that judgment for yourself. Personally I would refuse to build such a feature and likely it would cost me my job. Then someone else, maybe you, would step in to do it anyway. So in the end my resistance would amount to 'nothing'. But I'd sleep a lot better because of that, as long as you don't lose sleep over it you're doing fine. We all get to make these decisions on an individual basis.
- true_religion 15y ago
  > Whether you're a bad person or not is not for me to say, you can make that judgment for yourself. If you're not saying that these people are "bad people" then what's your basis of demanding that their actions be illegal?
  - enjalot 15y ago
    Laws aren't always based in morality, even when they align with morals. Even when a person commits a "bad" act, that does not necessarily make them a "bad person." After all, only God can judge them, right? ;)
    - awakeasleep 15y ago
      I think it doesn't make them a 'bad person' because people are always capable of changing (even if it only happens once in a while). And it doesn't make them a bad person because our actions are mostly a reaction to our environment, and we don't always have a correct/full view of it to begin with. So, applying your judgments to a person who reacts to their environment based on limited information and experiences, and saying they are fundamentally good or bad may not be totally logical. Then the saying "only God can judge" means that an omnipotent being, who perfectly understands everything, is the only being capable of perfect judgments and certain condemnation or praise.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  What if the German people don't mind? Then in refusing to provide them with equipment you could otherwise provide, you are simply forcing your own beliefs on other people.
  - kaybe 15y ago
    You will always find someone who minds (like me, in this case), and you will find people who don't mind. Whatever you do, you'll always influence the situation.
enjalot 15y ago
Right and wrong are often different from legal and illegal. I will pass no judgement (also because I still hold the believe that some communications technology is better than none) but using laws by the German government as a counter point is probably not the best idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders#Nuremberg_Trials_after_World_War_II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders#Nuremberg_Trial... I disagree with you on the point that it shouldn't be the job of the vendor to determine right from wrong. Only you can determine that, and it is your responsibility. If you let other people determine it for you, you will have no defense come judgement.
there 15y ago
many backend voip products sold in the US have to have the ability to do "lawful interception" as required under CALEA: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_Law_Enforcement_Act https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Communication...
pessimizer 15y ago
I'm not sure that comparing networking vendors to arms dealers to repressive regimes is the best way to defend them/yourself.
dholowiski 15y ago
Yes, you are. Shame on you.

0x12 15y ago

> Before you go condemning networking vendors think about weapons manufacturers. American companies routinely sell guns to countries that use them against their own citizens. Yes, and that is something that ought to be illegal too. Whether you're a bad person or not is not for me to say, you can make that judgment for yourself. Personally I would refuse to build such a feature and likely it would cost me my job. Then someone else, maybe you, would step in to do it anyway. So in the end my resistance would amount to 'nothing'. But I'd sleep a lot better because of that, as long as you don't lose sleep over it you're doing fine. We all get to make these decisions on an individual basis.

true_religion 15y ago
> Whether you're a bad person or not is not for me to say, you can make that judgment for yourself. If you're not saying that these people are "bad people" then what's your basis of demanding that their actions be illegal?
- enjalot 15y ago
  Laws aren't always based in morality, even when they align with morals. Even when a person commits a "bad" act, that does not necessarily make them a "bad person." After all, only God can judge them, right? ;)
  - awakeasleep 15y ago
    I think it doesn't make them a 'bad person' because people are always capable of changing (even if it only happens once in a while). And it doesn't make them a bad person because our actions are mostly a reaction to our environment, and we don't always have a correct/full view of it to begin with. So, applying your judgments to a person who reacts to their environment based on limited information and experiences, and saying they are fundamentally good or bad may not be totally logical. Then the saying "only God can judge" means that an omnipotent being, who perfectly understands everything, is the only being capable of perfect judgments and certain condemnation or praise.
sliverstorm 15y ago
What if the German people don't mind? Then in refusing to provide them with equipment you could otherwise provide, you are simply forcing your own beliefs on other people.
- kaybe 15y ago
  You will always find someone who minds (like me, in this case), and you will find people who don't mind. Whatever you do, you'll always influence the situation.

enjalot 15y ago

Right and wrong are often different from legal and illegal. I will pass no judgement (also because I still hold the believe that some communications technology is better than none) but using laws by the German government as a counter point is probably not the best idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders#Nuremberg_Trials_after_World_War_II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders#Nuremberg_Trial... I disagree with you on the point that it shouldn't be the job of the vendor to determine right from wrong. Only you can determine that, and it is your responsibility. If you let other people determine it for you, you will have no defense come judgement.

there 15y ago

many backend voip products sold in the US have to have the ability to do "lawful interception" as required under CALEA: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_Law_Enforcement_Act https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Communication...

pessimizer 15y ago

I'm not sure that comparing networking vendors to arms dealers to repressive regimes is the best way to defend them/yourself.

dholowiski 15y ago

Yes, you are. Shame on you.