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I'm actually quite serious about security. But I still feel that the security-related discussions are too overwhelming. Of course I know that nothing is 100% se
by zhoutong 15y ago
I'm actually quite serious about security. But I still feel that the security-related discussions are too overwhelming. Of course I know that nothing is 100% secure, but I can make my bottom-line high.
This is not my first project. I have been coding in Rails for almost 3 years, with some failed projects. I also know some security basics because I have hacked websites before (non-destructive).
There is always relative security. Ruby on Rails itself is a relatively secure framework. Rails sites have been much less frequently hacked than PHP sites. (Because everything is well wrapped.) I'm also very conservative about using Rails (rarely override methods myself, not even toughing find_by_sql even when it's the easy way).
Passwords are stored hashed and salted using BCrypt. Although no explicit security auditing has been done, all the Rails app logs (including requests and IP addresses) are extracted and backed up nightly. Soft-deleting is enabled for all operations, etc.
I'm not distracting myself from the real problem, but I have to say that I'm not that kind of random kids who write crappy apps for fun.
My use of Heroku is also partly because of security. I use Mac and know a bit of Linux, but I know I can't really set up a Linux box and be sure about the security. Instead I have chosen Heroku's integrated, read-only and cloud-based platform.
Sorry for not replying most of the security-related comments. Not because I can't face opposing arguments, but instead, I think they are valuable.
However, I hope everyone can be a little bit more reasonable and realistic. Since nothing is secure, security is everyone's problem. Although I don't have anything to prove my security experience, at least this is not the first time I deal with money. I once developed a mini payment gateway (PayPal and credit card) for my friend who used it to process transactions totaling more than $50,000. There're a lot of fraudulent orders, which means that people have an incentive to steal, but the payment system itself has been safe.
I can understand that people are skeptical considering my age (or even my Chinese name). But will the Bitcoin community be better off if I shut down the project now? I have chosen Bitcoin because its low barrier to entry and open community, not because I have no bottom-line or security concerns.
What I really want to disagree is the view that I must end this project now. There are basically too many people emailing me just to thank me for delivering the features that the big guys (Mt. Gox and TradeHill) can't finish in months.
I have taken the extreme minimalistic approach in development of Bitcoinica - no Bitcoin wallets and no unusable features. I make it a pure trading platform - you can't even do money laundering on Bitcoinica. System wise, I don't have to SSH the server to configure anything, and I don't have to even see the database credentials myself.
Anyway, I completely accept all the negative viewpoints about Bitcoinica, but I just want to explain clearly that I may not be the person everyone's thinking about.
- tptacek 15y agoThe term of art for responses like this is "jazz hands". Sorry. Security isn't "everybody's job". You've chosen to advertise a financial application. Security is your job. In a very real sense: sucks to be you.
- zhoutong 15y agoI'm not sure whether you're referring to a part of my comment or the whole comment. What I mean is, security is every financial platform owner's big challenge. This includes banks, escrow service providers, payment processors and e-commerce solution providers. Sometimes it's hard to know how secure a system is before anything happens. But I have already explained my experience, ability, current situation, my strategy, how my product works, my objectives and what I have done to the public to help everyone make informed choices. Not everyone will like every single product. I have been careful about everything I can.
- tptacek 15y agoI think you think these multi-paragraph responses you're writing are convincing. I think the best thing I can do for you is to be blunt about how unconvincing they are. Very few people with Rails or appsec experience will read them and think that you know what you're doing with regards to security. You should not be taking "thousands and thousands of dollars" from people. Full stop.
- zhoutong 15y agoThank you for your guidance!
- timsally 15y agoI agree with everything that has been said so far, with the exception of the conclusion. I don't have a problem with zhoutong taking money. People putting their money in Bitcoin are investing in a currency that is two years old. Said another way, a currency that is younger than a $15 bottle of wine. All players in such a market by definition lack reputation, lack experience in handling currency, and lack experience in running a financial institution. Yes, zhoutong doesn't understand security and yes he is hand-waving. Yes, he needs to do his best to secure his app. Yes, he should invest money in an audit when it can afford it (if only because a security audit maps directly to better business for a financial institution). But do I feel bad for users who are putting their money into Bitcoinica? Not really. Trading in a currency that is only two years old is the NFL. Dealing with young and inexperienced financial institutions is part of the game if you chose to enter such a risky market.