4 ms·

I don't understand why people keep saying this. Every state except Montana in the US is "at will": the employer can fire you at any time with no reason. I sup

by prirun 5y ago

I don't understand why people keep saying this. Every state except Montana in the US is "at will": the employer can fire you at any time with no reason. I suppose you could try to prove discrimination because of age or something else, but just like you can walk out and never come back, the employer can ask you to leave and you're done. Companies have no liability if you are fired other than a discrimination lawsuit. https://work.chron.com/fire-state-mean-20994.html https://work.chron.com/fire-state-mean-20994.html

aidenn0 5y ago
Legal departments are often fairly conservative. Do you know for a fact that the person you are firing is not a member of a protected class? If they are then they can potentially convince a judge that "fired with no reason" could be code for "fired for being the member of a protected class," at least to the degree that the trial cannot be dismissed. Once you have reached that point, it's almost moot whether or not the plaintiff will win, as lawsuits are sufficiently headache inducing and expensive that a settlement is likely. The odds of the above happening might be low, but being made aware of the possibility causes employers to CYA more than you might think in an at-will state.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  Also, it's a check against management.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    That's also a good point. If the manager for the direct report is racist/sexist/agist/whatever then the CYA becomes even more important for the company.
- garbagecoder 5y ago
  Everyone is in a protected class. It’s a common misconception that white men etc aren’t. Under employment laws, if you suffer adverse employment actions on the basis of a protected class, even if you are a white cishet thin Protestant male with money and an Ivy League degree you are in protected classes. Lawyers tell management this and get blamed for the law and courts being the way hey are. “Buy them out with a severance and a release” gets “why should I pay for something I’m allowed to do.” A few months later in house counsel gets screamed at “why is outside counsel charging us $50,000 for this summary judgment case?!” “Well, I told you that——-“ “This is your fault! Why doesn’t EPLI cover it” “You said it was too expensive, so we got the one with the high deductible.” Since the defense bar also lines their pockets with these cases, and scare pieces on their blogs “review your employee handbook now or else!” No one fixes anything.
ballenf 5y ago
Because some of their employees are in one or more protected classes and if you don't have a legit reason documented it's much harder to defend against a claim of illegal discrimination. And you can't just gather those reasons for employees in protected classes or that itself is discriminatory treatment of employees. So you have to make a choice as a large company: PIP systems or set aside more money for legal fees and settlements. Most opt for the former.
mikestew 5y ago
the employer can fire you at any time with no reason And in the U. S., anyone can sue anyone at any time with no reason (though there should be some semblance of a reason, or good luck finding counsel to take the case). Maybe you fired me because I'm black, maybe you didn't, but without any documentation of what the real reason was, the company stands a good chance of settling to avoid the time in court.
- ransom1538 5y ago
  "And in the U. S., anyone can sue anyone at any time with no reason (though there should be some semblance of a reason, or good luck finding counsel to take the case)." Judges hate this be careful. If you sue for "not enough ham in your subway sandwich" - I would bring overnight clothes and a toothbrush. Contempt of court is a thing. Judges hate time wasters.
lloydatkinson 5y ago
The internet is bigger than america, it's a shame I need to remind you.
- mikestew 5y ago
  Remind me again of the location of the corporate headquarters of the company that this portion of the thread is specifically talking about? Need I remind you of context?
garbagecoder 5y ago
Because that’s true. You think it’s free to get even a frivolous case dismissed under discrimination or wage/hour laws? Lol. Google “title VII burden shifting framework.” For companies in SV, i.e. under CA law, it’s easily tens of thousands to dismiss even a frivolous case. Better documentation means only increasingly bottom feeding plaintiffs lawyers will take the case.
jrs235 5y ago
It's also about making it firing "for/with cause" so the employee can't make a successful unemployment claim. The more unemployment claims against a company, the higher unemployment insurance rates/amounts the company has to pay.
- sgerenser 5y ago
  Being fired just because you’re bad at your job (as would normally be the case with a PIP) doesn’t make you ineligible for unemployment. Typically you’d have to be fired for gross negligence or doing something outright illegal.
taurath 5y ago
When management starts arbitrarily firing people without the perception that it’s a fair process, absolutely nobody sticks around. The process is for the benefit of retention because of employees perceive they can be dropped on a whim they start to act like it.

by prirun 5y ago

aidenn0 5y ago

Legal departments are often fairly conservative. Do you know for a fact that the person you are firing is not a member of a protected class? If they are then they can potentially convince a judge that "fired with no reason" could be code for "fired for being the member of a protected class," at least to the degree that the trial cannot be dismissed. Once you have reached that point, it's almost moot whether or not the plaintiff will win, as lawsuits are sufficiently headache inducing and expensive that a settlement is likely. The odds of the above happening might be low, but being made aware of the possibility causes employers to CYA more than you might think in an at-will state.

mywittyname 5y ago
Also, it's a check against management.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  That's also a good point. If the manager for the direct report is racist/sexist/agist/whatever then the CYA becomes even more important for the company.
garbagecoder 5y ago
Everyone is in a protected class. It’s a common misconception that white men etc aren’t. Under employment laws, if you suffer adverse employment actions on the basis of a protected class, even if you are a white cishet thin Protestant male with money and an Ivy League degree you are in protected classes. Lawyers tell management this and get blamed for the law and courts being the way hey are. “Buy them out with a severance and a release” gets “why should I pay for something I’m allowed to do.” A few months later in house counsel gets screamed at “why is outside counsel charging us $50,000 for this summary judgment case?!” “Well, I told you that——-“ “This is your fault! Why doesn’t EPLI cover it” “You said it was too expensive, so we got the one with the high deductible.” Since the defense bar also lines their pockets with these cases, and scare pieces on their blogs “review your employee handbook now or else!” No one fixes anything.

ballenf 5y ago

Because some of their employees are in one or more protected classes and if you don't have a legit reason documented it's much harder to defend against a claim of illegal discrimination. And you can't just gather those reasons for employees in protected classes or that itself is discriminatory treatment of employees. So you have to make a choice as a large company: PIP systems or set aside more money for legal fees and settlements. Most opt for the former.

mikestew 5y ago

the employer can fire you at any time with no reason And in the U. S., anyone can sue anyone at any time with no reason (though there should be some semblance of a reason, or good luck finding counsel to take the case). Maybe you fired me because I'm black, maybe you didn't, but without any documentation of what the real reason was, the company stands a good chance of settling to avoid the time in court.

ransom1538 5y ago
"And in the U. S., anyone can sue anyone at any time with no reason (though there should be some semblance of a reason, or good luck finding counsel to take the case)." Judges hate this be careful. If you sue for "not enough ham in your subway sandwich" - I would bring overnight clothes and a toothbrush. Contempt of court is a thing. Judges hate time wasters.

lloydatkinson 5y ago

The internet is bigger than america, it's a shame I need to remind you.

mikestew 5y ago
Remind me again of the location of the corporate headquarters of the company that this portion of the thread is specifically talking about? Need I remind you of context?

garbagecoder 5y ago

Because that’s true. You think it’s free to get even a frivolous case dismissed under discrimination or wage/hour laws? Lol. Google “title VII burden shifting framework.” For companies in SV, i.e. under CA law, it’s easily tens of thousands to dismiss even a frivolous case. Better documentation means only increasingly bottom feeding plaintiffs lawyers will take the case.

jrs235 5y ago

It's also about making it firing "for/with cause" so the employee can't make a successful unemployment claim. The more unemployment claims against a company, the higher unemployment insurance rates/amounts the company has to pay.

sgerenser 5y ago
Being fired just because you’re bad at your job (as would normally be the case with a PIP) doesn’t make you ineligible for unemployment. Typically you’d have to be fired for gross negligence or doing something outright illegal.

taurath 5y ago

When management starts arbitrarily firing people without the perception that it’s a fair process, absolutely nobody sticks around. The process is for the benefit of retention because of employees perceive they can be dropped on a whim they start to act like it.