4 ms·

I admit that's the weakest article out of the ones I posted but still makes still makes a few good points defusing commonly repeated sentences like "I can just

I admit that's the weakest article out of the ones I posted but still makes still makes a few good points defusing commonly repeated sentences like "I can just patch out the bad stuff" like we all read during the W11 announcement.

judge2020 5y ago
I think it's the point that trusted computing is optional. If you don't want to provide that trust by running W11 with the appropriate chain of cryptographic assurances, you're not going to be able to experience services and products that require it - why should Netflix give you a full 4k stream when you've chosen to disable the widevine extension in your browser? They can't tell their media provider "we try our best to prevent piracy" if they do that. The same goes for things like Valorant and the inevitable age where online games require TPM attestation - if someone runs their computer in an untrusted state that makes it nigh impossible for the anti-cheat to figure out they're running aimbot/wallhacks (or other cheats that do best by reading the process's memory), why should they let that computer play, when it could ruin the experience for other players?
- no_time 5y ago
  You are right, Netflix and Valorant can choose to require this and the world will go on as before. However this tech has the potential to put you at the mercy of a handful digital lords that may or may not let you access your bank's(If they decide to enforce attestation, just like on phones) website or just participate on the internet if you piss them off. I certainly wouldn't want to live in a world where this is a possibility.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > I think it's the point that trusted computing is optional. If you don't want to provide that trust by running W11 with the appropriate chain of cryptographic assurances, you're not going to be able to experience services and products that require it So, it's important that it's optional, so everybody will do their best to make it mandatory. > why should Netflix give you a full 4k stream when you've chosen to disable the widevine extension in your browser? They can't tell their media provider "we try our best to prevent piracy" if they do that. The same goes for things like Valorant and the inevitable age where online games require TPM attestation - if someone runs their computer in an untrusted state that makes it nigh impossible for the anti-cheat to figure out they're running aimbot/wallhacks (or other cheats that do best by reading the process's memory), why should they let that computer play, when it could ruin the experience for other players? Ah yes, of course; just like, in the name of preventing anything that they possibly could, it's totally reasonable for them to demand that you leave your webcam on and stream a screen share and the webcam to their servers at all times, since that will make it extremely difficult to cheat. Privacy and security concerns are irrelevant, since after all they have to do their very best possible job, right?
  - judge2020 5y ago
    > it's totally reasonable for them to demand that you leave your webcam on and stream a screen share and the webcam to their servers at all times, since that will make it extremely difficult to cheat. This is already how tests for school (including higher education) have been done, especially since the pandemic started[0]. In most situations, like playing a game, you can choose to play a different game (perhaps one not tied to being internet connected), but with higher education it's effectively forced on you to get a degree. 0: https://web.respondus.com/using-lockdown-browser-with-a-webcam-the-student-experience/ https://web.respondus.com/using-lockdown-browser-with-a-webc...
- tareqak 5y ago
  Why doesn't Netflix and Riot just sell me their own box/console that they trust instead of requiring TPM devices in in my machines?
  - no_time 5y ago
    Because they can. And people won't do anything about it.
- Zak 5y ago
  This is a balance of power issue, and corporations will always try to shift more power to themselves when the technology to enable that is available. I don't want Netflix to have the ability to verify the software I'm running before it gives me the stream I paid for. None of the things they could do with that power, such as forcing me to watch ads before the stream I've already paid for, or charging me different prices based on the kind of device I'm using benefit me. We as technologists should be wary of technologies that further shift the balance of power away from users.
  - no_time 5y ago
    > This is a balance of power issue, and corporations will always try to shift more power to themselves when the technology to enable that is available. Exactly, This is why I said below that this is a political issue. The question is whether the politics will see big tech as a threat and restrict them or as a potential ally and merge with their power.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  "I think it's the point that trusted computing is optional" It is optional the way the Internet is optional; in theory you can live without it but no longer practical. If companies keep pushing these systems, eventually they will become a requirement all over the place. Microsoft's track record with UEFI bootloader restrictions makes it pretty clear what that future looks like: cheap devices used by the masses will be more heavily restricted, while those who can shell out 3-4x the money can get a computer that at least allows them to run whatever software they want to run. "why should Netflix give you a full 4k stream when you've chosen to disable the widevine extension in your browser?" Why should Netflix dictate what hardware and operating system I get to run? A basic design principle of the Web, which Netflix relies on to avoid having to provision set-top boxes for their customers, is that anyone can implement a client without first seeking permission. In an ideal world Netflix would have to respect the basic design principles of the Web and of the Internet in order to benefit from those systems, but we obviously do not live in an ideal world. The largest companies in tech and media are trying to rewrite the rules of the consumer markets they do business in for their own benefit. For the entertainment companies DRM is a convenient way to avoid copyright laws (i.e. the part where copyrights expire and where fair use is a defense against infringement claims), and for tech companies DRM is a strategic play that allows them to control the devices they sell to users and monetize that control by selling DRM features to media companies. The legal and financial structures in place today encourage this behavior, and the concentration of power and lack of effective competition are making it possible.
- unixbane 5y ago
  > why should Netflix give you a full 4k stream when you've chosen to disable the widevine extension in your browser? ... beause we are a paying customer, want stuff in standard formats instead of proprietary ephemeral garbage, and we can just torrent it in 3 minutes? ...

judge2020 5y ago

I think it's the point that trusted computing is optional. If you don't want to provide that trust by running W11 with the appropriate chain of cryptographic assurances, you're not going to be able to experience services and products that require it - why should Netflix give you a full 4k stream when you've chosen to disable the widevine extension in your browser? They can't tell their media provider "we try our best to prevent piracy" if they do that. The same goes for things like Valorant and the inevitable age where online games require TPM attestation - if someone runs their computer in an untrusted state that makes it nigh impossible for the anti-cheat to figure out they're running aimbot/wallhacks (or other cheats that do best by reading the process's memory), why should they let that computer play, when it could ruin the experience for other players?

no_time 5y ago
You are right, Netflix and Valorant can choose to require this and the world will go on as before. However this tech has the potential to put you at the mercy of a handful digital lords that may or may not let you access your bank's(If they decide to enforce attestation, just like on phones) website or just participate on the internet if you piss them off. I certainly wouldn't want to live in a world where this is a possibility.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> I think it's the point that trusted computing is optional. If you don't want to provide that trust by running W11 with the appropriate chain of cryptographic assurances, you're not going to be able to experience services and products that require it So, it's important that it's optional, so everybody will do their best to make it mandatory. > why should Netflix give you a full 4k stream when you've chosen to disable the widevine extension in your browser? They can't tell their media provider "we try our best to prevent piracy" if they do that. The same goes for things like Valorant and the inevitable age where online games require TPM attestation - if someone runs their computer in an untrusted state that makes it nigh impossible for the anti-cheat to figure out they're running aimbot/wallhacks (or other cheats that do best by reading the process's memory), why should they let that computer play, when it could ruin the experience for other players? Ah yes, of course; just like, in the name of preventing anything that they possibly could, it's totally reasonable for them to demand that you leave your webcam on and stream a screen share and the webcam to their servers at all times, since that will make it extremely difficult to cheat. Privacy and security concerns are irrelevant, since after all they have to do their very best possible job, right?
- judge2020 5y ago
  > it's totally reasonable for them to demand that you leave your webcam on and stream a screen share and the webcam to their servers at all times, since that will make it extremely difficult to cheat. This is already how tests for school (including higher education) have been done, especially since the pandemic started[0]. In most situations, like playing a game, you can choose to play a different game (perhaps one not tied to being internet connected), but with higher education it's effectively forced on you to get a degree. 0: https://web.respondus.com/using-lockdown-browser-with-a-webcam-the-student-experience/ https://web.respondus.com/using-lockdown-browser-with-a-webc...
tareqak 5y ago
Why doesn't Netflix and Riot just sell me their own box/console that they trust instead of requiring TPM devices in in my machines?
- no_time 5y ago
  Because they can. And people won't do anything about it.
Zak 5y ago
This is a balance of power issue, and corporations will always try to shift more power to themselves when the technology to enable that is available. I don't want Netflix to have the ability to verify the software I'm running before it gives me the stream I paid for. None of the things they could do with that power, such as forcing me to watch ads before the stream I've already paid for, or charging me different prices based on the kind of device I'm using benefit me. We as technologists should be wary of technologies that further shift the balance of power away from users.
- no_time 5y ago
  > This is a balance of power issue, and corporations will always try to shift more power to themselves when the technology to enable that is available. Exactly, This is why I said below that this is a political issue. The question is whether the politics will see big tech as a threat and restrict them or as a potential ally and merge with their power.
betterunix2 5y ago
"I think it's the point that trusted computing is optional" It is optional the way the Internet is optional; in theory you can live without it but no longer practical. If companies keep pushing these systems, eventually they will become a requirement all over the place. Microsoft's track record with UEFI bootloader restrictions makes it pretty clear what that future looks like: cheap devices used by the masses will be more heavily restricted, while those who can shell out 3-4x the money can get a computer that at least allows them to run whatever software they want to run. "why should Netflix give you a full 4k stream when you've chosen to disable the widevine extension in your browser?" Why should Netflix dictate what hardware and operating system I get to run? A basic design principle of the Web, which Netflix relies on to avoid having to provision set-top boxes for their customers, is that anyone can implement a client without first seeking permission. In an ideal world Netflix would have to respect the basic design principles of the Web and of the Internet in order to benefit from those systems, but we obviously do not live in an ideal world. The largest companies in tech and media are trying to rewrite the rules of the consumer markets they do business in for their own benefit. For the entertainment companies DRM is a convenient way to avoid copyright laws (i.e. the part where copyrights expire and where fair use is a defense against infringement claims), and for tech companies DRM is a strategic play that allows them to control the devices they sell to users and monetize that control by selling DRM features to media companies. The legal and financial structures in place today encourage this behavior, and the concentration of power and lack of effective competition are making it possible.
unixbane 5y ago
> why should Netflix give you a full 4k stream when you've chosen to disable the widevine extension in your browser? ... beause we are a paying customer, want stuff in standard formats instead of proprietary ephemeral garbage, and we can just torrent it in 3 minutes? ...