4 ms·

Covid deaths afaik are “death while having Covid”. Do you see a reason to apply a different standard to vaccines?

by DenisM 5y ago

derekp7 5y ago
So if someone has Covid and gets run over by a train, is that reported as a Covid death (serious question)? Or are only deaths due to a medical reason (heart failure, stroke, etc) reported as such, since there is a possibility of them being linked?
- detaro 5y ago
  > So if someone has Covid and gets run over by a train, is that reported as a Covid death (serious question)? No. German reporting is based on the local health agencies reporting deaths either "caused primarily by COVID" or "with COVID as a contributing factor" (last I saw in a ratio of about 80:20, some sampling with autopsies suggests that's not totally off but the samples aren't all that large), with almost always the aggregate number being reported because the distinction can be very difficult to make. (EDIT: although official overall cause-of-death statistics still go by primary reported cause, and thus exclude the latter part)
- DenisM 5y ago
  Any death where covid contributed. So, no train wrecks, but death from pneumonia-while-covid is counted as death by covid. Coronavirus disease deaths are identified using the ICD–10 code U07.1. Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > but death from pneumonia-while-covid is counted as death by covid. As well it should be, because the base rate for pneumonia is well known and is taken into account when reporting these stats. I linked you an example in another comment.
jacquesm 5y ago
Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled by this comment. Either you are going for the comedic value, or you are actually serious in which case I am not sure where to begin to address your comment if by now you have not yet realized the difference between dying vaccinated and dying while COVID positive. On the off-chance that it is the second, and that you are really serious: 'Death while having COVID' does not equate 'death by COVID', it merely is something that is registered. A death certificate lists conditions around the time of death, and being COVID positive may (or may not, not everybody is tested, after all) result in a mention on the death certificate. If COVID is a part of the chain that led to the person dying then you are likely to see something mentioned in the area that is related to the cause of death, likely an infection with COVID will be listed there as well as for instance pneumonia, the direct cause of death. With the vaccines and their side effects, something similar happens: there is the possibility of a link, and when such a link is confirmed then that will cause all kinds of feedback loops to engage, which if the evidence points to the cure being worse than the disease may even lead to the vaccine being taken off the market, or, alternatively, to be restricted in its distribution based on whatever demographics turned up to have an adverse risk profile. I hope that answers your question, and that you understand now that there is really only one standard here.
- DenisM 5y ago
  No need to insult my sincerity, the HN guidelines are perfectly clear - assume good faith. If you can’t just don’t reply at all, no need to trash the venue. Back to the topic at hand, you maybe right about what the death certificate says, but I am more concerned with what counts as a covid death in statistics. The CDC is pretty clear about that - any death where covid contributed is a covid death. Getting hit by a truck won’t count, but pneumonia certainly will. It seems that any cause of death that could come from covid is counted as covid death as long as the deceased was infected. Coronavirus disease deaths are identified using the ICD–10 code U07.1. Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm Likewise I would expect death from vaccine to be, statistically speaking, any death by a vaccine-related cause within two weeks of being vaccinated. Perhaps my expectations are wrong, but they are certainly not unreasonable.

Covid deaths afaik are “death while having Covid”. Do you see a reason to apply a different standard to vaccines?

by DenisM 5y ago

Covid deaths afaik are “death while having Covid”. Do you see a reason to apply a different standard to vaccines?

So if someone has Covid and gets run over by a train, is that reported as a Covid death (serious question)? Or are only deaths due to a medical reason (heart failure, stroke, etc) reported as such, since there is a possibility of them being linked?

detaro 5y ago
> So if someone has Covid and gets run over by a train, is that reported as a Covid death (serious question)? No. German reporting is based on the local health agencies reporting deaths either "caused primarily by COVID" or "with COVID as a contributing factor" (last I saw in a ratio of about 80:20, some sampling with autopsies suggests that's not totally off but the samples aren't all that large), with almost always the aggregate number being reported because the distinction can be very difficult to make. (EDIT: although official overall cause-of-death statistics still go by primary reported cause, and thus exclude the latter part)
DenisM 5y ago
Any death where covid contributed. So, no train wrecks, but death from pneumonia-while-covid is counted as death by covid. Coronavirus disease deaths are identified using the ICD–10 code U07.1. Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > but death from pneumonia-while-covid is counted as death by covid. As well it should be, because the base rate for pneumonia is well known and is taken into account when reporting these stats. I linked you an example in another comment.

jacquesm 5y ago

Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled by this comment. Either you are going for the comedic value, or you are actually serious in which case I am not sure where to begin to address your comment if by now you have not yet realized the difference between dying vaccinated and dying while COVID positive. On the off-chance that it is the second, and that you are really serious: 'Death while having COVID' does not equate 'death by COVID', it merely is something that is registered. A death certificate lists conditions around the time of death, and being COVID positive may (or may not, not everybody is tested, after all) result in a mention on the death certificate. If COVID is a part of the chain that led to the person dying then you are likely to see something mentioned in the area that is related to the cause of death, likely an infection with COVID will be listed there as well as for instance pneumonia, the direct cause of death. With the vaccines and their side effects, something similar happens: there is the possibility of a link, and when such a link is confirmed then that will cause all kinds of feedback loops to engage, which if the evidence points to the cure being worse than the disease may even lead to the vaccine being taken off the market, or, alternatively, to be restricted in its distribution based on whatever demographics turned up to have an adverse risk profile. I hope that answers your question, and that you understand now that there is really only one standard here.

DenisM 5y ago
No need to insult my sincerity, the HN guidelines are perfectly clear - assume good faith. If you can’t just don’t reply at all, no need to trash the venue. Back to the topic at hand, you maybe right about what the death certificate says, but I am more concerned with what counts as a covid death in statistics. The CDC is pretty clear about that - any death where covid contributed is a covid death. Getting hit by a truck won’t count, but pneumonia certainly will. It seems that any cause of death that could come from covid is counted as covid death as long as the deceased was infected. Coronavirus disease deaths are identified using the ICD–10 code U07.1. Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm Likewise I would expect death from vaccine to be, statistically speaking, any death by a vaccine-related cause within two weeks of being vaccinated. Perhaps my expectations are wrong, but they are certainly not unreasonable.