4 ms·

I wish German media were as meticulous about reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines against COVID-19 as they are with reporting about the dangers of COV

by HMH 5y ago

I wish German media were as meticulous about reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines against COVID-19 as they are with reporting about the dangers of COVID-19 itself. The above findings are currently prominently displayed on tagesschau.de [1], whereas you can't even find the current number of suspected deaths after vaccinations (currently 1919 deaths after vaccination in Germany [2]) using the search utility [3]. Please note that this number is indeed newsworthy as this is the first update in months regarding deaths after vaccinations. [1]: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/uke-studie-corona-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/uke-studie-corona-101.html [2]: https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/newsroom/dossiers/sicherheitsberichte/sicherheitsbericht-27-12-20-bis-30-11-21.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=7 https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/newsroom/dossiers... [3]: https://www.tagesschau.de/suche2.html?query=1919&sort_by=date https://www.tagesschau.de/suche2.html?query=1919&sort_by=dat...

piva00 5y ago
> I wish German media were as meticulous about reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines against COVID-19 as they are with reporting about the dangers of COVID-19 itself. Why?
- tomrod 5y ago
  In my experience, this is typically a "dog whistle" type statement that people who are anti-vaccination espouse. Conversation, when it does occur, will often lead to something like VAERS shows X,Y,Z (but without comparison of incidence to baseline population).
jacquesm 5y ago
Post hoc ergo propter hoc... they are not suspected, they are possible.
- DenisM 5y ago
  Covid deaths afaik are “death while having Covid”. Do you see a reason to apply a different standard to vaccines?
  - derekp7 5y ago
    So if someone has Covid and gets run over by a train, is that reported as a Covid death (serious question)? Or are only deaths due to a medical reason (heart failure, stroke, etc) reported as such, since there is a possibility of them being linked?
    - detaro 5y ago
      > So if someone has Covid and gets run over by a train, is that reported as a Covid death (serious question)? No. German reporting is based on the local health agencies reporting deaths either "caused primarily by COVID" or "with COVID as a contributing factor" (last I saw in a ratio of about 80:20, some sampling with autopsies suggests that's not totally off but the samples aren't all that large), with almost always the aggregate number being reported because the distinction can be very difficult to make. (EDIT: although official overall cause-of-death statistics still go by primary reported cause, and thus exclude the latter part)
    - DenisM 5y ago
      Any death where covid contributed. So, no train wrecks, but death from pneumonia-while-covid is counted as death by covid. Coronavirus disease deaths are identified using the ICD–10 code U07.1. Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        > but death from pneumonia-while-covid is counted as death by covid. As well it should be, because the base rate for pneumonia is well known and is taken into account when reporting these stats. I linked you an example in another comment.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled by this comment. Either you are going for the comedic value, or you are actually serious in which case I am not sure where to begin to address your comment if by now you have not yet realized the difference between dying vaccinated and dying while COVID positive. On the off-chance that it is the second, and that you are really serious: 'Death while having COVID' does not equate 'death by COVID', it merely is something that is registered. A death certificate lists conditions around the time of death, and being COVID positive may (or may not, not everybody is tested, after all) result in a mention on the death certificate. If COVID is a part of the chain that led to the person dying then you are likely to see something mentioned in the area that is related to the cause of death, likely an infection with COVID will be listed there as well as for instance pneumonia, the direct cause of death. With the vaccines and their side effects, something similar happens: there is the possibility of a link, and when such a link is confirmed then that will cause all kinds of feedback loops to engage, which if the evidence points to the cure being worse than the disease may even lead to the vaccine being taken off the market, or, alternatively, to be restricted in its distribution based on whatever demographics turned up to have an adverse risk profile. I hope that answers your question, and that you understand now that there is really only one standard here.
- HMH 5y ago
  Well, the security report itself talks about suspected cases (Verdachtsfallmeldungen in German), so I guess it's fair to call them that: > In 1.919 Verdachtsfallmeldungen wurde über einen tödlichen Ausgang in unterschiedlichem zeitlichem Abstand zur Impfung (0 Tage bis 289 Tage) berichtet. Also note that not every death after vaccination is reported, you need to fill a document with your symptoms [1]. So these are indeed very much suspected cases of adverse side effects / deaths. [1]: https://nebenwirkungen.bund.de/nw/DE/home/home_node.html https://nebenwirkungen.bund.de/nw/DE/home/home_node.html
  - detaro 5y ago
    > Also note that not every death after vaccination is reported, you need to fill a document with your symptoms Suspected severe reactions (and death certainly is that!) are not primarily self-reported, since there is a legal requirement for doctors etc to report them.

by HMH 5y ago

piva00 5y ago

> I wish German media were as meticulous about reporting adverse side effects of the vaccines against COVID-19 as they are with reporting about the dangers of COVID-19 itself. Why?

tomrod 5y ago
In my experience, this is typically a "dog whistle" type statement that people who are anti-vaccination espouse. Conversation, when it does occur, will often lead to something like VAERS shows X,Y,Z (but without comparison of incidence to baseline population).

jacquesm 5y ago

Post hoc ergo propter hoc... they are not suspected, they are possible.

DenisM 5y ago
Covid deaths afaik are “death while having Covid”. Do you see a reason to apply a different standard to vaccines?
- derekp7 5y ago
  So if someone has Covid and gets run over by a train, is that reported as a Covid death (serious question)? Or are only deaths due to a medical reason (heart failure, stroke, etc) reported as such, since there is a possibility of them being linked?
  - detaro 5y ago
    > So if someone has Covid and gets run over by a train, is that reported as a Covid death (serious question)? No. German reporting is based on the local health agencies reporting deaths either "caused primarily by COVID" or "with COVID as a contributing factor" (last I saw in a ratio of about 80:20, some sampling with autopsies suggests that's not totally off but the samples aren't all that large), with almost always the aggregate number being reported because the distinction can be very difficult to make. (EDIT: although official overall cause-of-death statistics still go by primary reported cause, and thus exclude the latter part)
  - DenisM 5y ago
    Any death where covid contributed. So, no train wrecks, but death from pneumonia-while-covid is counted as death by covid. Coronavirus disease deaths are identified using the ICD–10 code U07.1. Deaths are coded to U07.1 when coronavirus disease 2019 or COVID-19 are reported as a cause that contributed to death on the death certificate. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/tech_notes.htm
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > but death from pneumonia-while-covid is counted as death by covid. As well it should be, because the base rate for pneumonia is well known and is taken into account when reporting these stats. I linked you an example in another comment.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled by this comment. Either you are going for the comedic value, or you are actually serious in which case I am not sure where to begin to address your comment if by now you have not yet realized the difference between dying vaccinated and dying while COVID positive. On the off-chance that it is the second, and that you are really serious: 'Death while having COVID' does not equate 'death by COVID', it merely is something that is registered. A death certificate lists conditions around the time of death, and being COVID positive may (or may not, not everybody is tested, after all) result in a mention on the death certificate. If COVID is a part of the chain that led to the person dying then you are likely to see something mentioned in the area that is related to the cause of death, likely an infection with COVID will be listed there as well as for instance pneumonia, the direct cause of death. With the vaccines and their side effects, something similar happens: there is the possibility of a link, and when such a link is confirmed then that will cause all kinds of feedback loops to engage, which if the evidence points to the cure being worse than the disease may even lead to the vaccine being taken off the market, or, alternatively, to be restricted in its distribution based on whatever demographics turned up to have an adverse risk profile. I hope that answers your question, and that you understand now that there is really only one standard here.
HMH 5y ago
Well, the security report itself talks about suspected cases (Verdachtsfallmeldungen in German), so I guess it's fair to call them that: > In 1.919 Verdachtsfallmeldungen wurde über einen tödlichen Ausgang in unterschiedlichem zeitlichem Abstand zur Impfung (0 Tage bis 289 Tage) berichtet. Also note that not every death after vaccination is reported, you need to fill a document with your symptoms [1]. So these are indeed very much suspected cases of adverse side effects / deaths. [1]: https://nebenwirkungen.bund.de/nw/DE/home/home_node.html https://nebenwirkungen.bund.de/nw/DE/home/home_node.html
- detaro 5y ago
  > Also note that not every death after vaccination is reported, you need to fill a document with your symptoms Suspected severe reactions (and death certainly is that!) are not primarily self-reported, since there is a legal requirement for doctors etc to report them.