5 ms·

- Re WiFi: it's not specific to Framework, and are just bugs in Intel's Linux driver. See bug (and workaround and patches) in my report https://bugzilla.kernel.

- Re WiFi: it's not specific to Framework, and are just bugs in Intel's Linux driver. See bug (and workaround and patches) in my report https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214693 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214693 as well as forum discussion https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on-the-framework-laptop/1844 https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on... - Re battery: Yup, battery life during sleep sucks, it seems like this is mostly an Intel 11th gen issue as S3 sleep went away and folks on Dell, Lenovo, etc., 11th gen hardware have similar issues. - Re Fan: it does seem to like to ramp up a bit too much even when components are not really that hot yet. - Re USB-C: have not used that, so cannot comment - Re build quality: yes, it is a bit flimsier than I would like (though have definitely used laptops that are way worse), but it is also lighter than competitors that are less so. I am mostly okay with that trade-off, others may not be. As you say, the company has been responsive and helpful on the community forums in a way the big players never have been, and the BIOS updates are fixing genuine issues and complaints with real release notes. It's not all great for sure, but there's lots of things that are a lot better than competitors.

kkielhofner 5y ago
Thank you for clarifying that the Intel wifi issues are a Linux kernel thing, not a Framework thing. I tried to communicate that in my comment but obviously I could have been clearer. I'm fairly confident they'll get fixed in Linux eventually but it's still yet-another-issue that's frustrating for a laptop so heavily embraced by the Linux community. I understand the sleep issues but battery life is miserable generally - the sleep issues only exacerbate an already pretty-much-terrible situation. Fortunately I don't really need significant battery life but if I did I'd be looking to unload this thing at this point.
- amarshall 5y ago
  FWIW the workaround in the bug report 100% resolves the WiFi issues for me (it just means losing 802.11ax support, but my AP does not have that anyway). It was definitely the most frustrating issue for me; made game streaming via Moonlight impossible. Anecdotally, my battery life is plenty good when actually using it (I've yet to feel like I need to reach for the charger at all unless I started very low), but everyone's use case is different.
  - kkielhofner 5y ago
    Yep, I'd actually forgotten about that workaround but I couldn't risk another entire day of lost productivity so I spent my evening running Ethernet. No regrets!
- criddell 5y ago
  How are the wifi issues not Framework's responsibility? They are the ones who defined the hardware specs. I would assume they tested different configurations and picked the best options. Which makes me wonder - maybe the Intel wifi board has a lot of problems but is still the best Linux option...
  - thereddaikon 5y ago
    Their design aim was to make a laptop that is upgradeable and serviceable first. Not 100% Linux support first. This makes sense because software is much easier to improve after the fact than hardware. And I'm curious to know which WiFi chipset you would rather they have used, as most alternatives either have worse Linux support or aren't as advanced as Intel's. Would you rather they used Broadcom, The bane of WiFi and Linux?
    - criddell 5y ago
      > which WiFi chipset you would rather they have used That's what my last sentence was trying to express. Something can be shitty and also the best option.
      - thereddaikon 5y ago
        My bad, I took that to be sarcasm.
  - amarshall 5y ago
    I mean, Dell and Lenovo sell laptops with Linux pre-installed with Intel AX* WiFi boards that almost certainly suffer the same issue. I’m not trying to give Framework (or any other laptop maker) a free pass here, just saying that it’s not a unique problem to this laptop.
    - criddell 5y ago
      I was thinking that there was a good Linux option out there. That may not be true. One of the benefits that a company like Framework has is that they don't have to support everything. They can be like Apple and tailor their hardware choices to the ones best supported by the software. To me, Asahi Linux is the most exciting thing going on in Linux-land right now. They have a very small number of hardware configurations to support. In theory, they should be able to get it really dialed in and polished to the point where it just works. I don't care if they go for KDE or Gnome, SystemD or SysVinit, or anything else in particular. If it works right from the start and is extraordinarily stable, I'll learn to love the choices they make.
AlphaSite 5y ago
I mean at the end of the day, you’re buying a laptop from framework, if the laptops work does work that’s on them for choosing to use an intel chip with known issues. Laptops are sold as an appliance for the most part, they have to own it’s quality. Actually more than that, this should first be an excellent laptop and then the repairability and customisable it should be layered on top of that without compromising it (too much), as opposed to the other way around.
- nvarsj 5y ago
  That's not really fair... no one is going to buy a new laptop without the most modern processor. The problem really is that Intel on mobile is awful and has only been getting worse as they try to compete. I guess you could say Framework dropped the ball by not using AMD.
  - AlphaSite 5y ago
    I don’t think AMD makes Wi-Fi chipsets,so it’s somewhat irrelevant isnt it?
    - nvarsj 5y ago
      I meant in terms of the OP's complaint about fans spinning up at the slightest usage - that is an Intel CPU issue. Modern mobile intel CPUs get way too hot, too easily. You're right, the wifi side is Intel, although Framework could have used an AX200 without any problems. Although, AX210 does work pretty flawlessly now in the most recent kernels.

kkielhofner 5y ago

Thank you for clarifying that the Intel wifi issues are a Linux kernel thing, not a Framework thing. I tried to communicate that in my comment but obviously I could have been clearer. I'm fairly confident they'll get fixed in Linux eventually but it's still yet-another-issue that's frustrating for a laptop so heavily embraced by the Linux community. I understand the sleep issues but battery life is miserable generally - the sleep issues only exacerbate an already pretty-much-terrible situation. Fortunately I don't really need significant battery life but if I did I'd be looking to unload this thing at this point.

amarshall 5y ago
FWIW the workaround in the bug report 100% resolves the WiFi issues for me (it just means losing 802.11ax support, but my AP does not have that anyway). It was definitely the most frustrating issue for me; made game streaming via Moonlight impossible. Anecdotally, my battery life is plenty good when actually using it (I've yet to feel like I need to reach for the charger at all unless I started very low), but everyone's use case is different.
- kkielhofner 5y ago
  Yep, I'd actually forgotten about that workaround but I couldn't risk another entire day of lost productivity so I spent my evening running Ethernet. No regrets!
criddell 5y ago
How are the wifi issues not Framework's responsibility? They are the ones who defined the hardware specs. I would assume they tested different configurations and picked the best options. Which makes me wonder - maybe the Intel wifi board has a lot of problems but is still the best Linux option...
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  Their design aim was to make a laptop that is upgradeable and serviceable first. Not 100% Linux support first. This makes sense because software is much easier to improve after the fact than hardware. And I'm curious to know which WiFi chipset you would rather they have used, as most alternatives either have worse Linux support or aren't as advanced as Intel's. Would you rather they used Broadcom, The bane of WiFi and Linux?
  - criddell 5y ago
    > which WiFi chipset you would rather they have used That's what my last sentence was trying to express. Something can be shitty and also the best option.
    - thereddaikon 5y ago
      My bad, I took that to be sarcasm.
- amarshall 5y ago
  I mean, Dell and Lenovo sell laptops with Linux pre-installed with Intel AX* WiFi boards that almost certainly suffer the same issue. I’m not trying to give Framework (or any other laptop maker) a free pass here, just saying that it’s not a unique problem to this laptop.
  - criddell 5y ago
    I was thinking that there was a good Linux option out there. That may not be true. One of the benefits that a company like Framework has is that they don't have to support everything. They can be like Apple and tailor their hardware choices to the ones best supported by the software. To me, Asahi Linux is the most exciting thing going on in Linux-land right now. They have a very small number of hardware configurations to support. In theory, they should be able to get it really dialed in and polished to the point where it just works. I don't care if they go for KDE or Gnome, SystemD or SysVinit, or anything else in particular. If it works right from the start and is extraordinarily stable, I'll learn to love the choices they make.

AlphaSite 5y ago

I mean at the end of the day, you’re buying a laptop from framework, if the laptops work does work that’s on them for choosing to use an intel chip with known issues. Laptops are sold as an appliance for the most part, they have to own it’s quality. Actually more than that, this should first be an excellent laptop and then the repairability and customisable it should be layered on top of that without compromising it (too much), as opposed to the other way around.

nvarsj 5y ago
That's not really fair... no one is going to buy a new laptop without the most modern processor. The problem really is that Intel on mobile is awful and has only been getting worse as they try to compete. I guess you could say Framework dropped the ball by not using AMD.
- AlphaSite 5y ago
  I don’t think AMD makes Wi-Fi chipsets,so it’s somewhat irrelevant isnt it?
  - nvarsj 5y ago
    I meant in terms of the OP's complaint about fans spinning up at the slightest usage - that is an Intel CPU issue. Modern mobile intel CPUs get way too hot, too easily. You're right, the wifi side is Intel, although Framework could have used an AX200 without any problems. Although, AX210 does work pretty flawlessly now in the most recent kernels.