5 ms·

I'm with you. My configuration is more-or-less maxed out and at over $2500 it's one of the more regretful large purchases I've ever made. Current issues: - As

I'm with you. My configuration is more-or-less maxed out and at over $2500 it's one of the more regretful large purchases I've ever made. Current issues: - As has been noted time and time again, battery life is atrocious. As in unusable for even the travel time required for a three hour flight: factoring in the poor sleep, an hour at the airport, and time on the aircraft the battery is dead. Crazy for 2021/2022 - my eight year old Macbook does better. - Wifi. The Intel Wifi modules provided with the Framework are very poorly supported in Linux. I spent six hours the other night running additional ethernet drops because I just couldn't stand my workday routinely being interrupted by repeatedly disassociating from my AP (fixed with reboot). Even unloading and reloading the associated kernel modules wouldn't bring it back. - USB-C acts... Strange. I have two 4K displays using Displayport over USB-C and the Framework repeatedly fails to initialize them from boot. I have to do a strange dance (the steps of which I'm still figuring out) involving powering off the Framework, unplugging/re-plugging everything, and then rebooting until it magically works again. - Fan. The fan is crazy. I've settled on disabling turbo mode in Linux. - Build quality. I'm convinced if I drop this thing it's all over. All in all I'm mad at myself for spending over $3k on a productivity configuration centered around what is pretty much beta hardware. I should have known better. Anyway, there's hope for some of these issues as they seem to be releasing BIOS updates pretty regularly (currently running 3.07) but even then I need to USB boot to use their EFI update tool. Intel wifi should get better over time and worst case I can swap it out for Atheros or something. That said I think the battery, build, and fan issues are fundamental hardware design choices.

amarshall 5y ago
- Re WiFi: it's not specific to Framework, and are just bugs in Intel's Linux driver. See bug (and workaround and patches) in my report https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214693 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214693 as well as forum discussion https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on-the-framework-laptop/1844 https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on... - Re battery: Yup, battery life during sleep sucks, it seems like this is mostly an Intel 11th gen issue as S3 sleep went away and folks on Dell, Lenovo, etc., 11th gen hardware have similar issues. - Re Fan: it does seem to like to ramp up a bit too much even when components are not really that hot yet. - Re USB-C: have not used that, so cannot comment - Re build quality: yes, it is a bit flimsier than I would like (though have definitely used laptops that are way worse), but it is also lighter than competitors that are less so. I am mostly okay with that trade-off, others may not be. As you say, the company has been responsive and helpful on the community forums in a way the big players never have been, and the BIOS updates are fixing genuine issues and complaints with real release notes. It's not all great for sure, but there's lots of things that are a lot better than competitors.
- kkielhofner 5y ago
  Thank you for clarifying that the Intel wifi issues are a Linux kernel thing, not a Framework thing. I tried to communicate that in my comment but obviously I could have been clearer. I'm fairly confident they'll get fixed in Linux eventually but it's still yet-another-issue that's frustrating for a laptop so heavily embraced by the Linux community. I understand the sleep issues but battery life is miserable generally - the sleep issues only exacerbate an already pretty-much-terrible situation. Fortunately I don't really need significant battery life but if I did I'd be looking to unload this thing at this point.
  - amarshall 5y ago
    FWIW the workaround in the bug report 100% resolves the WiFi issues for me (it just means losing 802.11ax support, but my AP does not have that anyway). It was definitely the most frustrating issue for me; made game streaming via Moonlight impossible. Anecdotally, my battery life is plenty good when actually using it (I've yet to feel like I need to reach for the charger at all unless I started very low), but everyone's use case is different.
    - kkielhofner 5y ago
      Yep, I'd actually forgotten about that workaround but I couldn't risk another entire day of lost productivity so I spent my evening running Ethernet. No regrets!
  - criddell 5y ago
    How are the wifi issues not Framework's responsibility? They are the ones who defined the hardware specs. I would assume they tested different configurations and picked the best options. Which makes me wonder - maybe the Intel wifi board has a lot of problems but is still the best Linux option...
    - thereddaikon 5y ago
      Their design aim was to make a laptop that is upgradeable and serviceable first. Not 100% Linux support first. This makes sense because software is much easier to improve after the fact than hardware. And I'm curious to know which WiFi chipset you would rather they have used, as most alternatives either have worse Linux support or aren't as advanced as Intel's. Would you rather they used Broadcom, The bane of WiFi and Linux?
hda111 5y ago
Would be interesting to see how much battery life there is on Windows. For ThinkPads it’s always much better on Windows than on Linux.
nrp 5y ago
Thanks for the feedback! Andrew noted in a sibling comment what the issue was with the AX210 in Linux. Intel has informed us that the patch is going into kernel 5.17. In retrospect had we known how many issues we'd see with AX210 relative to AX201, we would have gone with the latter as the default option on the DIY Edition. Going forward though, we do expect compatibility and stability to improve (on 5.17 and later). On the USB-C issues, it would be great to know the model numbers of the displays and cables that are having this issue. We want to continue to build up our library of peripherals that have unknown issues in order to resolve them. On build quality, we've seen exceeding few field failures on mechanical issues, and a couple of reports of people dropping their system (or as often happens, blaming their cat for this) from high enough to dent a corner of the chassis and then being able resolve that by ordering a replacement cover part from us.
- kkielhofner 5y ago
  Hi! Thanks for taking the time to reply to my overwhelmingly negative review. I suppose what I'm saying, generally, is that I should be more selective in my tools. You're a startup. I'm on my third. I should know that when I'm often barely hanging on from the stress and workload of building my own stuff I should select "safe" and "proven" tools. In this case that should have probably been a Macbook (again) because Linux on a laptop is still practically a part-time job itself. EDIT: Speaking of startups, if you didn't know already you have a lot of "street cred" out there. When wrapping an in-person presentation or meeting many of the questions I get are about my Framework! Where should I report on the displays and cables with the USB-C issues? Regarding drops I've actually never dropped a laptop in the > 20 years I've had them. So kind of a non-concern but the comment was referring to the general "feel" which may not really mean anything outside of perception.
  - nrp 5y ago
    On the USB-C issues, if you could drop a ticket in https://frame.work/support#contact_support https://frame.work/support#contact_support and mention this thread, that would be great. Thanks!

amarshall 5y ago

- Re WiFi: it's not specific to Framework, and are just bugs in Intel's Linux driver. See bug (and workaround and patches) in my report https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214693 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214693 as well as forum discussion https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on-the-framework-laptop/1844 https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on... - Re battery: Yup, battery life during sleep sucks, it seems like this is mostly an Intel 11th gen issue as S3 sleep went away and folks on Dell, Lenovo, etc., 11th gen hardware have similar issues. - Re Fan: it does seem to like to ramp up a bit too much even when components are not really that hot yet. - Re USB-C: have not used that, so cannot comment - Re build quality: yes, it is a bit flimsier than I would like (though have definitely used laptops that are way worse), but it is also lighter than competitors that are less so. I am mostly okay with that trade-off, others may not be. As you say, the company has been responsive and helpful on the community forums in a way the big players never have been, and the BIOS updates are fixing genuine issues and complaints with real release notes. It's not all great for sure, but there's lots of things that are a lot better than competitors.

kkielhofner 5y ago
Thank you for clarifying that the Intel wifi issues are a Linux kernel thing, not a Framework thing. I tried to communicate that in my comment but obviously I could have been clearer. I'm fairly confident they'll get fixed in Linux eventually but it's still yet-another-issue that's frustrating for a laptop so heavily embraced by the Linux community. I understand the sleep issues but battery life is miserable generally - the sleep issues only exacerbate an already pretty-much-terrible situation. Fortunately I don't really need significant battery life but if I did I'd be looking to unload this thing at this point.
- amarshall 5y ago
  FWIW the workaround in the bug report 100% resolves the WiFi issues for me (it just means losing 802.11ax support, but my AP does not have that anyway). It was definitely the most frustrating issue for me; made game streaming via Moonlight impossible. Anecdotally, my battery life is plenty good when actually using it (I've yet to feel like I need to reach for the charger at all unless I started very low), but everyone's use case is different.
  - kkielhofner 5y ago
    Yep, I'd actually forgotten about that workaround but I couldn't risk another entire day of lost productivity so I spent my evening running Ethernet. No regrets!
- criddell 5y ago
  How are the wifi issues not Framework's responsibility? They are the ones who defined the hardware specs. I would assume they tested different configurations and picked the best options. Which makes me wonder - maybe the Intel wifi board has a lot of problems but is still the best Linux option...
  - thereddaikon 5y ago
    Their design aim was to make a laptop that is upgradeable and serviceable first. Not 100% Linux support first. This makes sense because software is much easier to improve after the fact than hardware. And I'm curious to know which WiFi chipset you would rather they have used, as most alternatives either have worse Linux support or aren't as advanced as Intel's. Would you rather they used Broadcom, The bane of WiFi and Linux?

hda111 5y ago

Would be interesting to see how much battery life there is on Windows. For ThinkPads it’s always much better on Windows than on Linux.

nrp 5y ago

Thanks for the feedback! Andrew noted in a sibling comment what the issue was with the AX210 in Linux. Intel has informed us that the patch is going into kernel 5.17. In retrospect had we known how many issues we'd see with AX210 relative to AX201, we would have gone with the latter as the default option on the DIY Edition. Going forward though, we do expect compatibility and stability to improve (on 5.17 and later). On the USB-C issues, it would be great to know the model numbers of the displays and cables that are having this issue. We want to continue to build up our library of peripherals that have unknown issues in order to resolve them. On build quality, we've seen exceeding few field failures on mechanical issues, and a couple of reports of people dropping their system (or as often happens, blaming their cat for this) from high enough to dent a corner of the chassis and then being able resolve that by ordering a replacement cover part from us.

kkielhofner 5y ago
Hi! Thanks for taking the time to reply to my overwhelmingly negative review. I suppose what I'm saying, generally, is that I should be more selective in my tools. You're a startup. I'm on my third. I should know that when I'm often barely hanging on from the stress and workload of building my own stuff I should select "safe" and "proven" tools. In this case that should have probably been a Macbook (again) because Linux on a laptop is still practically a part-time job itself. EDIT: Speaking of startups, if you didn't know already you have a lot of "street cred" out there. When wrapping an in-person presentation or meeting many of the questions I get are about my Framework! Where should I report on the displays and cables with the USB-C issues? Regarding drops I've actually never dropped a laptop in the > 20 years I've had them. So kind of a non-concern but the comment was referring to the general "feel" which may not really mean anything outside of perception.
- nrp 5y ago
  On the USB-C issues, if you could drop a ticket in https://frame.work/support#contact_support https://frame.work/support#contact_support and mention this thread, that would be great. Thanks!