4 ms·

No it's not just it. That's small part of it. If you need to pull 30 other packages to your backend or frontend, then your "full stack framework" is not full st

by mirzap 5y ago

No it's not just it. That's small part of it. If you need to pull 30 other packages to your backend or frontend, then your "full stack framework" is not full stack. Check .NET, SpringBoot or even Laravel to some degree to see how "full stack" really looks like. It's entire ecosystem. You rarely go outside of that. Can you develop modern app (with db access, caching, queues, messaging etc.) with just SvelteKit or just Next.js (and their official packages) as dependency? No, you can't. Not without pulling 20 other 3rd party packages. Thus, those are not full stack frameworks. They are nice and convinient opinionated frameworks, that speed up development, but you always relay on other packages to complete the stack.

capableweb 5y ago
Yeah, I guess we have different definitions for them. What you're talking about is what I'd call a "batteries-included" framework, which exists both as frontend, backend and full-stack frameworks. Full-stack just means that you can write your frontend and backend with it, not the amount of functionality it has within.
- tacker2000 5y ago
  But backend means precisely these things. ORM, DB migrations, caching, etc. You need that for a solid backend. Of course not everybody needs messaging queues for example , but some frameworks support this out of the box and/or have years of integration with popular queues like rabbitmq to look back onto. Imagine how many integration bugs were already solved in that time, which this new framework still has to iron out. Time and experience mean something.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Well, for you, apparently, it does mean those things. But for plenty of us, it doesn't. Why would I need an ORM/DB migrations if everything lives on disk? Why'd I need caching when I already run Varnish in front of the backend? Point being (again), definitions seem to differ, and what you call "full stack" is what I call "batteries-included framework". Full stack simply means (for me) that it gives you a way of building frontend and backend code, but implies nothing about what functionality is included in either part.
  - slantyyz 5y ago
    You make it sound like none of these things exist. Sveltekit is part of the NodeJS ecosystem, and there are mature libraries that do many of those things. The only thing is that Sveltekit isn't force feeding any particular library down your throat. When I moved over from Express, I pretty much just continued using the libraries I was already using. If you look at how a lot of people actually use Sveltekit, it seems like they're outsourcing a lot of things like data storage and authentication to third party services. What benefit is provided to those users by baking in functions they don't need?
    - jf22 5y ago
      >What benefit is provided to those users by baking in functions they don't need? A full-stack experience...
      - slantyyz 5y ago
        > A full-stack experience... Which clearly doesn't have the same meaning to all people.
        capableweb 5y ago
        > Which clearly doesn't have the same meaning to all people. Evidently :) To maybe be able to consolidate the definition, I created a Poll: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29811603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29811603

by mirzap 5y ago

capableweb 5y ago

Yeah, I guess we have different definitions for them. What you're talking about is what I'd call a "batteries-included" framework, which exists both as frontend, backend and full-stack frameworks. Full-stack just means that you can write your frontend and backend with it, not the amount of functionality it has within.

tacker2000 5y ago
But backend means precisely these things. ORM, DB migrations, caching, etc. You need that for a solid backend. Of course not everybody needs messaging queues for example , but some frameworks support this out of the box and/or have years of integration with popular queues like rabbitmq to look back onto. Imagine how many integration bugs were already solved in that time, which this new framework still has to iron out. Time and experience mean something.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Well, for you, apparently, it does mean those things. But for plenty of us, it doesn't. Why would I need an ORM/DB migrations if everything lives on disk? Why'd I need caching when I already run Varnish in front of the backend? Point being (again), definitions seem to differ, and what you call "full stack" is what I call "batteries-included framework". Full stack simply means (for me) that it gives you a way of building frontend and backend code, but implies nothing about what functionality is included in either part.
- slantyyz 5y ago
  You make it sound like none of these things exist. Sveltekit is part of the NodeJS ecosystem, and there are mature libraries that do many of those things. The only thing is that Sveltekit isn't force feeding any particular library down your throat. When I moved over from Express, I pretty much just continued using the libraries I was already using. If you look at how a lot of people actually use Sveltekit, it seems like they're outsourcing a lot of things like data storage and authentication to third party services. What benefit is provided to those users by baking in functions they don't need?
  - jf22 5y ago
    >What benefit is provided to those users by baking in functions they don't need? A full-stack experience...
    - slantyyz 5y ago
      > A full-stack experience... Which clearly doesn't have the same meaning to all people.
      - capableweb 5y ago
        > Which clearly doesn't have the same meaning to all people. Evidently :) To maybe be able to consolidate the definition, I created a Poll: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29811603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29811603