5 ms·

What an odd way to decide which machine you'll use every day for the next year or more. A clean install is really easy -- maybe one hour if you sit and watch i

by dlss 15y ago

What an odd way to decide which machine you'll use every day for the next year or more. A clean install is really easy -- maybe one hour if you sit and watch it, fifteen minutes if you use your old laptop while it's going... why would you let a cost of <one hour drive your buying decision? Setup time is part of the cost of a system. I'm sure that the apple machine isn't actually ready for you to use it out of the box -- if you're like most HN readers you'll have tons of tweaks you need to install before the computer actually works the way you want it to. I'm writing this on a x220 with a 240GB Vertex3 under the hood, which is 4-10x faster than my coworker's13" 240GB macbook air for bioinformatics workloads. It cost about $100 more, and yes it required a clean install as part of setup. The profit I've made on that $100 + 1 hour is insane... probably 100x return so far this year on decreased compile & run times (calculated as delta in experiments per day times my annual salary)

hamedh 15y ago
i cared about doing clean installs/configuring when i was a teenager and had nothing else to do. now i just want my computer stay out of my way and make me money. os x, time machine, etc all let me do that
endtwist 15y ago
You do know you're not the typical laptop buyer, right? The majority of people buy a laptop, take it home, and want it to just work. Do you buy a new refrigerator expecting to have to clean out the compressor the minute you take it home? I certainly hope not.
- dlss 15y ago
  If I could make a 100x profit on my time doing it, you bet. To put more forcefully: if I needed to maintain one of those room sized refrigerators, and could save $10,000 for a couple hours of messing with a compressor the decision is a no brainer. I agree that mortals can't/won't do this -- doesn't mean the HN crowd is being intelligent when they say what the guy I replied to was saying :p EDIT: Downvoters, please explain -- For people with high computing requirements who insist on the x220 / Macbook air form factor, this is an accurate picture of the ROI. Look at the performance differences between the macbook air ssd (http://www.anandtech.com/show/3991/apples-2010-macbook-air-11-13inch-reviewed/4 http://www.anandtech.com/show/3991/apples-2010-macbook-air-1...) and the vertex 3 (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4316/ocz-vertex-3-240gb-review/2 http://www.anandtech.com/show/4316/ocz-vertex-3-240gb-review...). If your job commonly has you IO bound you will see at least 100 hours of your life saved over the 2,000 hours of a year of 40 hour work weeks (a 5% savings -- not all your time will be spent IO bound). And that's not including the difference between a 2.7 Ghz and a 1.7 Ghz processor...
  - cma 15y ago
    Someone with high computing requirements shouldn't be using an ultra light notebook; get a desktop or get an amazon ec2 instance for a few pennies.
    - dlss 15y ago
      That's just it: with a vertex 3 and a maxed out CPU the x220 doesn't perform like a thin and light -- I'm getting the same IO performance as a vertex 3 in a desktop, and although I could get a CPU boost with a desktop processor I'd have to give up on having all my work with me at all times / at conferences. The EC2 option has always interested me, but short of EBS RAID its IO actually isn't better than a vertex 3 -- they're crazy fast; if you haven't tried them I highly recommend you do :)
  - pbreit 15y ago
    Because you are missing the point. The discussion is on basic marketing which implies to the general populace, not HNers who are comfortable re-installing their OS. And you preface with "How odd..." either unknowingly or just plain condescendingly describing 95% of the computer buying public. Then you fib that Macs are not ready for use out-of-the-box. Then you put forth the classic defense of exaggerating the value of your work. ps I did not downvote.
    - dlss 15y ago
      Thanks for the reply. It cleared up my misunderstanding -- I think HN readers don't do a good job thinking when it comes to Apple stories. (for those curious here is the breakdown of why pbreit is wrong: 1. The guy I was replying to is by definition an HNer, and was talking about buying an air over a sony SB due to reinstall concerns. My "how odd" was in reply / directly to him. 2. Macs aren't ready to use out of the box. No computer is. You need to, at the very least, install all the apps you use and copy over your data. This takes considerable time. Did it come with Chrome? Did it come with Office? Did it come with (your editor of choice)? Did it come with Little Snitch? 1password? The caps-lock key switched to a control key? Inconsolata installed? No. And that's not a complete list by a long shot. Adding an hour long reinstall to this list isn't a big deal. 3. The x220 and Macbook air do have the same form factor from a functional perspective. They both are quite easy to keep with you at all times, hence both inhabiting the thin and light category used by most review sites. Yes the air is thinner, but it gives up being able to accept good hard drives to do so... making the x220 the smallest you can go and still get good performance. 4. I wasn't exaggerating the value of my work. I don't even think my numbers were above average for engineer pay...)
initself 15y ago
Me personally, I wouldn't let the cost of one hour drive my buying decision. But Aunt Tillie sure would.
- ojilles 15y ago
  Never met Aunt Tillie, but my guess would be what's 1 hour for you is days work for her, if she'd be able to complete it at all.
specialist 15y ago
Bioinformatic workloads, huh? Sounds important. I don't believe you. If it was major number crunching, you'd batch that crap on the fastest servers you could afford. If it's interactive, the computer is waiting on you more than doing work. Just admit it: you're a technophile that likes to fiddle with all the knobs. Fine. Whatever floats your boat. But don't play stupid about the OP's article. HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. have TERRIBLE marketing communications supported by TERRIBLE product family line ups. The OP's point (hello!) is Apple's simplified product family allows them to achieve better economies of scale then their competitors. Very simple.
- dlss 15y ago
  First of all, the thing you are replying to isn't in reply to OP's article. It's in reply to a particularly stupid comment. Secondly, the HN crowd doesn't seem to consider that when selling to large corporations the Dell, Lenovo, etc. "overly complex" approach makes sense -- that there might be a reason that apple isn't the #1 computer manufacturer, especially for institutional purchases. Fourthly, before talking about "mostly waiting on user input" you should consider the research. ("1.0 second is about the limit for the user's flow of thought to stay uninterrupted") start with http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html Fifthly, you seem unfamiliar with how scientific computing works. Here's the process: 1. Hypothesis (usually but not always done by professor or adviser) 2. Find a dataset, or multiple datasets that should be able to falsify #1 3. Code up an initial test in R or Mathematica (or Matlab if you don't like FP) -- does the correlation even exist? How well do the off-the-shelf methods work? 4. If you think you can do better, write it up in C++/Java, testing as you go 5. If the process requires a lot of CPU time for near perfection (NN / RBM / GA / GP), run task on server for use in your publication (graphs / discrimination percentages) Only #5 is really effective to put on the server... Working with Mathematica remotely is a PITA with non-university hardware (licences), and remote interfaces have annoyingly high latency IMHO. Sixthly, I do like fiddling with knobs, but to use your own turn of phrase back at you... just admit it: you didn't think before writing what you wrote. You're not analyzing and trying to understand anything in your post, only stating an opinion backed up with no facts. Like a child wandering in to a university lecture and announcing that there are no negative numbers because your teacher told you so. That you were not downvoted to oblivion before I saw this is merely symptomatic of HNs irrational love of apple products.
mgkimsal 15y ago
Can you even do a clean install on most Windows laptops that are purchased, unless you also purchase Windows separately? Pretty much all Windows laptops I've seen since around 2003 don't come with stock Windows, but come with a 'recovery disk' which reimages the disk back to factory default - meaning, with the original crapware.
- dlss 15y ago
  You download the CD image from digitalriver, then put that on a USB stick See http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/14709-Windows-7-Digital-River-direct-links-Multiple-Languages-X86-amp-X64 http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/14709-Windows-7-Dig...
  - 2muchcoffeeman 15y ago
    That's hilarious. Is this seriously the case now?
philwelch 15y ago
It's just a matter of principle. If I buy a new machine (any type of machine), it should be ready for use as soon as I take it home. If I have to configure it that's fine, but things shouldn't ship broken.
rayiner 15y ago
I'm a typical HN reader (and a programmer) and I don't think I've changed any settings on my Macbook Pro other than the mouse tracking speed.

by dlss 15y ago

hamedh 15y ago

i cared about doing clean installs/configuring when i was a teenager and had nothing else to do. now i just want my computer stay out of my way and make me money. os x, time machine, etc all let me do that

endtwist 15y ago

You do know you're not the typical laptop buyer, right? The majority of people buy a laptop, take it home, and want it to just work. Do you buy a new refrigerator expecting to have to clean out the compressor the minute you take it home? I certainly hope not.

dlss 15y ago
If I could make a 100x profit on my time doing it, you bet. To put more forcefully: if I needed to maintain one of those room sized refrigerators, and could save $10,000 for a couple hours of messing with a compressor the decision is a no brainer. I agree that mortals can't/won't do this -- doesn't mean the HN crowd is being intelligent when they say what the guy I replied to was saying :p EDIT: Downvoters, please explain -- For people with high computing requirements who insist on the x220 / Macbook air form factor, this is an accurate picture of the ROI. Look at the performance differences between the macbook air ssd (http://www.anandtech.com/show/3991/apples-2010-macbook-air-11-13inch-reviewed/4 http://www.anandtech.com/show/3991/apples-2010-macbook-air-1...) and the vertex 3 (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4316/ocz-vertex-3-240gb-review/2 http://www.anandtech.com/show/4316/ocz-vertex-3-240gb-review...). If your job commonly has you IO bound you will see at least 100 hours of your life saved over the 2,000 hours of a year of 40 hour work weeks (a 5% savings -- not all your time will be spent IO bound). And that's not including the difference between a 2.7 Ghz and a 1.7 Ghz processor...
- cma 15y ago
  Someone with high computing requirements shouldn't be using an ultra light notebook; get a desktop or get an amazon ec2 instance for a few pennies.
  - dlss 15y ago
    That's just it: with a vertex 3 and a maxed out CPU the x220 doesn't perform like a thin and light -- I'm getting the same IO performance as a vertex 3 in a desktop, and although I could get a CPU boost with a desktop processor I'd have to give up on having all my work with me at all times / at conferences. The EC2 option has always interested me, but short of EBS RAID its IO actually isn't better than a vertex 3 -- they're crazy fast; if you haven't tried them I highly recommend you do :)
- pbreit 15y ago
  Because you are missing the point. The discussion is on basic marketing which implies to the general populace, not HNers who are comfortable re-installing their OS. And you preface with "How odd..." either unknowingly or just plain condescendingly describing 95% of the computer buying public. Then you fib that Macs are not ready for use out-of-the-box. Then you put forth the classic defense of exaggerating the value of your work. ps I did not downvote.
  - dlss 15y ago
    Thanks for the reply. It cleared up my misunderstanding -- I think HN readers don't do a good job thinking when it comes to Apple stories. (for those curious here is the breakdown of why pbreit is wrong: 1. The guy I was replying to is by definition an HNer, and was talking about buying an air over a sony SB due to reinstall concerns. My "how odd" was in reply / directly to him. 2. Macs aren't ready to use out of the box. No computer is. You need to, at the very least, install all the apps you use and copy over your data. This takes considerable time. Did it come with Chrome? Did it come with Office? Did it come with (your editor of choice)? Did it come with Little Snitch? 1password? The caps-lock key switched to a control key? Inconsolata installed? No. And that's not a complete list by a long shot. Adding an hour long reinstall to this list isn't a big deal. 3. The x220 and Macbook air do have the same form factor from a functional perspective. They both are quite easy to keep with you at all times, hence both inhabiting the thin and light category used by most review sites. Yes the air is thinner, but it gives up being able to accept good hard drives to do so... making the x220 the smallest you can go and still get good performance. 4. I wasn't exaggerating the value of my work. I don't even think my numbers were above average for engineer pay...)

initself 15y ago

Me personally, I wouldn't let the cost of one hour drive my buying decision. But Aunt Tillie sure would.

ojilles 15y ago
Never met Aunt Tillie, but my guess would be what's 1 hour for you is days work for her, if she'd be able to complete it at all.

specialist 15y ago

Bioinformatic workloads, huh? Sounds important. I don't believe you. If it was major number crunching, you'd batch that crap on the fastest servers you could afford. If it's interactive, the computer is waiting on you more than doing work. Just admit it: you're a technophile that likes to fiddle with all the knobs. Fine. Whatever floats your boat. But don't play stupid about the OP's article. HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. have TERRIBLE marketing communications supported by TERRIBLE product family line ups. The OP's point (hello!) is Apple's simplified product family allows them to achieve better economies of scale then their competitors. Very simple.

dlss 15y ago
First of all, the thing you are replying to isn't in reply to OP's article. It's in reply to a particularly stupid comment. Secondly, the HN crowd doesn't seem to consider that when selling to large corporations the Dell, Lenovo, etc. "overly complex" approach makes sense -- that there might be a reason that apple isn't the #1 computer manufacturer, especially for institutional purchases. Fourthly, before talking about "mostly waiting on user input" you should consider the research. ("1.0 second is about the limit for the user's flow of thought to stay uninterrupted") start with http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html Fifthly, you seem unfamiliar with how scientific computing works. Here's the process: 1. Hypothesis (usually but not always done by professor or adviser) 2. Find a dataset, or multiple datasets that should be able to falsify #1 3. Code up an initial test in R or Mathematica (or Matlab if you don't like FP) -- does the correlation even exist? How well do the off-the-shelf methods work? 4. If you think you can do better, write it up in C++/Java, testing as you go 5. If the process requires a lot of CPU time for near perfection (NN / RBM / GA / GP), run task on server for use in your publication (graphs / discrimination percentages) Only #5 is really effective to put on the server... Working with Mathematica remotely is a PITA with non-university hardware (licences), and remote interfaces have annoyingly high latency IMHO. Sixthly, I do like fiddling with knobs, but to use your own turn of phrase back at you... just admit it: you didn't think before writing what you wrote. You're not analyzing and trying to understand anything in your post, only stating an opinion backed up with no facts. Like a child wandering in to a university lecture and announcing that there are no negative numbers because your teacher told you so. That you were not downvoted to oblivion before I saw this is merely symptomatic of HNs irrational love of apple products.

mgkimsal 15y ago

Can you even do a clean install on most Windows laptops that are purchased, unless you also purchase Windows separately? Pretty much all Windows laptops I've seen since around 2003 don't come with stock Windows, but come with a 'recovery disk' which reimages the disk back to factory default - meaning, with the original crapware.

dlss 15y ago
You download the CD image from digitalriver, then put that on a USB stick See http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/14709-Windows-7-Digital-River-direct-links-Multiple-Languages-X86-amp-X64 http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/14709-Windows-7-Dig...
- 2muchcoffeeman 15y ago
  That's hilarious. Is this seriously the case now?

philwelch 15y ago

It's just a matter of principle. If I buy a new machine (any type of machine), it should be ready for use as soon as I take it home. If I have to configure it that's fine, but things shouldn't ship broken.

rayiner 15y ago

I'm a typical HN reader (and a programmer) and I don't think I've changed any settings on my Macbook Pro other than the mouse tracking speed.