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You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain to the initial comment in this thread, which simply stated that the costs of this p

You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain to the initial comment in this thread, which simply stated that the costs of this pandemic to children may be much higher than we realize. No one has even argued for a specific policy like keeping schools open no matter the risks. But you seem unwilling to simply concede that this is an ongoing disaster for kids. I mean, remote learning has been a farce, particularly for young students whose parents can't work from home, are technologically or otherwise illiterate, or don't speak English. But I guess it's all our fault because we don't live near retired or underemployed friends or relatives who can take on childcare responsibilities for months on end?

quadrifoliate 5y ago
> You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain [sic] to the initial comment in this thread Teachers do the the bulk of the work in keeping "schools" going. A majority of the essential employees in schools are teachers, but a very large margin (the next biggest is janitors and other support staff). Perhaps I am overreacting because discussion about this I have heard tends to descend into thinly veiled blame for the teachers. A typical disingenuous comment that I have heard repeated ad nauseam is "Oh, we are not blaming the teachers, we just want schools to be open". Well okay, we can throw open the doors then without enough teachers, and I guess the students can just...teach themselves? > But you seem unwilling to simply concede that this is an ongoing disaster for kids. I mean, remote learning has been a farce... Yeah, my statement would certainly be more nuanced than that. I would concede that: - There is an ongoing pandemic that is a disaster, especially with the model of healthcare that we use in the US - It has changed the fabric of our society in many ways, including expectations about "going to work" and childcare - This change has affected children's learning in ways that are unpredictable What I don't get is the isolation of these unpredictable changes to a simple, easily hurled "schools and learning are a disaster" comment. Society is a disaster right now, and unlikely to go back to normal in a hundred ways. > it's all our fault because we don't live near retired or underemployed friends or relatives who can take on childcare responsibilities for months on end? Certainly not, I feel bad for you. I'm just implying that the lack of these is a part of why society (not just "schools") is such a disaster right now. A society with more cohesion that balances responsibility of child rearing across multiple people would have done a much better job.
- geoduck14 5y ago
  I don't know what you are going towards. I'll put aside (for the moment) any argument about school improving productivity for working parents. You keep mentioning that there are ways to take care of kids that don't include "kids in schools with teachers" - you want teachers removed from the equation because they shouldn't be forced to be exposed to kids. No matter how I think about the alternatives, I keep coming back to a building shaped like a school, staffed with people that look like teachers. Example 1: I get a retired person to watch my kids. Well, this person is still exposed to my kids (just like a teacher), and exposed to my house. Also, where am I going to find a retired person who is willing to be in my house, but not willing to go to the local school and do the exact same work? Example 2: I get an underemployed friend to watch my kids. I don't know any underemployed people - they all have kids and jobs like me. Would I find someone on the internet? I'm certainly not going to let a stranger take care of my kids... not unless that person had similar qualifications as a teacher Example 3: maybe I partner up with other families. We take turns watching our kids. 5 families, we watch our kids 1 day a week, we work 4 days a week. It's awesome. And I just invited homeschooling. If we are really good, we'll expand. And I just invented school. You end with this > A society with more cohesion that balances responsibility of child rearing across multiple people would have done a much better job I'm pretty sure child rearing has been balanced across multiple people in our society. Many (not all) families have 2 parents. Their kids go to school with people. They may be involved in sports, coached by people. They may even go to places of worship, with more people.
  - quadrifoliate 5y ago
    The difference is that in all 3 of your examples you don't have the "Of course it's obvious that the other person should do this job during a pandemic" entitlement. In your examples, you'd probably pay the retired person or underemployed friend extra during a pandemic. You'd probably make sure that the other families you were exposed to had adequate PPE and weren't exposed to unnecessary risk. If your kid misbehaved, you'd probably keep them at home instead of sending them to other families. You probably can't just abstract them into a "childcare unit" abstraction. But with schools, you seem to be able to do this. The drumbeat seems to be "Kids should be in school come hell or high water", instead of "We would humbly request other people to take care of and teach our kids, and we understand that they are overworked and there's extreme health risks". My suggestion for you is – if you really believe in Example 3, why not do it? Try it and see; I guarantee you'll run into the equivalent of staffing problems before long. If not, win-win – you just got free school!

quadrifoliate 5y ago

> You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain [sic] to the initial comment in this thread Teachers do the the bulk of the work in keeping "schools" going. A majority of the essential employees in schools are teachers, but a very large margin (the next biggest is janitors and other support staff). Perhaps I am overreacting because discussion about this I have heard tends to descend into thinly veiled blame for the teachers. A typical disingenuous comment that I have heard repeated ad nauseam is "Oh, we are not blaming the teachers, we just want schools to be open". Well okay, we can throw open the doors then without enough teachers, and I guess the students can just...teach themselves? > But you seem unwilling to simply concede that this is an ongoing disaster for kids. I mean, remote learning has been a farce... Yeah, my statement would certainly be more nuanced than that. I would concede that: - There is an ongoing pandemic that is a disaster, especially with the model of healthcare that we use in the US - It has changed the fabric of our society in many ways, including expectations about "going to work" and childcare - This change has affected children's learning in ways that are unpredictable What I don't get is the isolation of these unpredictable changes to a simple, easily hurled "schools and learning are a disaster" comment. Society is a disaster right now, and unlikely to go back to normal in a hundred ways. > it's all our fault because we don't live near retired or underemployed friends or relatives who can take on childcare responsibilities for months on end? Certainly not, I feel bad for you. I'm just implying that the lack of these is a part of why society (not just "schools") is such a disaster right now. A society with more cohesion that balances responsibility of child rearing across multiple people would have done a much better job.

geoduck14 5y ago
I don't know what you are going towards. I'll put aside (for the moment) any argument about school improving productivity for working parents. You keep mentioning that there are ways to take care of kids that don't include "kids in schools with teachers" - you want teachers removed from the equation because they shouldn't be forced to be exposed to kids. No matter how I think about the alternatives, I keep coming back to a building shaped like a school, staffed with people that look like teachers. Example 1: I get a retired person to watch my kids. Well, this person is still exposed to my kids (just like a teacher), and exposed to my house. Also, where am I going to find a retired person who is willing to be in my house, but not willing to go to the local school and do the exact same work? Example 2: I get an underemployed friend to watch my kids. I don't know any underemployed people - they all have kids and jobs like me. Would I find someone on the internet? I'm certainly not going to let a stranger take care of my kids... not unless that person had similar qualifications as a teacher Example 3: maybe I partner up with other families. We take turns watching our kids. 5 families, we watch our kids 1 day a week, we work 4 days a week. It's awesome. And I just invited homeschooling. If we are really good, we'll expand. And I just invented school. You end with this > A society with more cohesion that balances responsibility of child rearing across multiple people would have done a much better job I'm pretty sure child rearing has been balanced across multiple people in our society. Many (not all) families have 2 parents. Their kids go to school with people. They may be involved in sports, coached by people. They may even go to places of worship, with more people.
- quadrifoliate 5y ago
  The difference is that in all 3 of your examples you don't have the "Of course it's obvious that the other person should do this job during a pandemic" entitlement. In your examples, you'd probably pay the retired person or underemployed friend extra during a pandemic. You'd probably make sure that the other families you were exposed to had adequate PPE and weren't exposed to unnecessary risk. If your kid misbehaved, you'd probably keep them at home instead of sending them to other families. You probably can't just abstract them into a "childcare unit" abstraction. But with schools, you seem to be able to do this. The drumbeat seems to be "Kids should be in school come hell or high water", instead of "We would humbly request other people to take care of and teach our kids, and we understand that they are overworked and there's extreme health risks". My suggestion for you is – if you really believe in Example 3, why not do it? Try it and see; I guarantee you'll run into the equivalent of staffing problems before long. If not, win-win – you just got free school!