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Where is this generation's "Moving Mount Fuji" that explains the history of leetcode puzzles and their ineffectiveness? https://m.slashdot.org/story/34239 https

Where is this generation's "Moving Mount Fuji" that explains the history of leetcode puzzles and their ineffectiveness? https://m.slashdot.org/story/34239 https://m.slashdot.org/story/34239

LAC-Tech 5y ago
Moving Mount Fuji I see someone at microsoft was a fan of The Shamen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ6Qg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ6Qg
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  The video is unavailable.
  - why_only_15 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfQ98A-6mG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfQ98A-6mG8 should be available for US users
actually_a_dog 5y ago
I wonder that as well. I don't see any significant connection between Leetcode or Leetcode-style questions and anything resembling what a company theoretically should be looking for in an engineer. The only thing I can come up with is that being able to memorize or otherwise internalize so many different problems is a proxy for intelligence (general mental ability). If so, I suspect it's a fairly weak proxy. But, is that it? In the US, at least, not a lot of employers will give a straight up test of general mental ability (IQ test), likely because they see it as potentially attracting lawsuits. This is because IQ tests show a well-documented racial disparity in scores, which has not been shown to be correlated with anything genetic. Rather, the problem is either traced back to differences in family socioeconomic status growing up, or cultural bias issues with the tests. Everything in the previous paragraph can be verified in a few minutes of Googling, so, I'm not going to litter this comment with citations when the obvious keywords will produce the information mentioned here. But, everything else, including what's to follow this, should be considered pure speculation on my part. Given all this context, I can only think of 2 obvious reasons companies resort to using LC or LC-style interviews: 1. As a proxy for a test of general mental ability, as previously mentioned, or 2. Cargo culting, as with the whole "How would you move Mt. Fuji?" phenomenon. I don't personally have a great deal of insight into which it is, or, if there's a third explanation that I'm completely missing. I also don't know whether there's any research supporting or refuting the idea that LC puzzles provide a valid interview signal for software engineers. All I really know is that these type of problems exercise skills that are not what one uses on the job as a SWE, so, it seems rather illogical to use them as a main component of your hiring process.
- dnissley 5y ago
  It's a weak proxy for general mental ability, but it's also a signal for high conscientiousness -- someone willing to spend a couple months studying to the test is showing that they have the ability to work hard on something over some length of time.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    Why not bring back the civil service exams of Imperial China, then? Surely one's willingness to undertake extended study of the classics of Chinese literature, and to master a stylized form of discourse about them is also a signal of conscientiousness, isn't it? As a "bonus," this is likely to take far longer than the few months people spend practicing Leetcode. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-legged_essay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-legged_essay
    - 2sk21 5y ago
      When I was in grad school for CS, I recall talking to the dean of the department who said that his preferred approach for recruiting CS students would be to have them write a five page essay on any topic of their choice. Anyone who could write a coherent essay would probably make a good researcher. Unfortunately, he was never able to put this into practice - the university administration only considered grades and GRE scores.
  - nefitty 5y ago
    I thought my ability to build a prototype in a day showed that. Maybe I should have learned every variation of FizzBuzz instead of learning how node works.
  - josephg 5y ago
    Does grinding for months even work? The point of this post (and others like it) is that you can spend years doing leetcode without getting better. In comparison, I score far below most of my peers on conscientiousness but I find leetcode style problems easy. I'm a terrible hire in lots of roles because most companies' problems are boring. I have a history of getting bored and quitting. But I sail through these interviews. If conscientiousness is what companies are going for, I think they're still interviewing wrong.
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kazinator 5y ago
I would move Mount Fuji by having it situated on an island where like three continental plates meet, and then just kick back and watch. So to speak.
- deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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Where is this generation's "Moving Mount Fuji" that explains the history of leetcode puzzles and their ineffectiveness? https://m.slashdot.org/story/34239 https://m.slashdot.org/story/34239

LAC-Tech 5y ago

Moving Mount Fuji I see someone at microsoft was a fan of The Shamen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ6Qg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ6Qg

selimthegrim 5y ago
The video is unavailable.
- why_only_15 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfQ98A-6mG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfQ98A-6mG8 should be available for US users

actually_a_dog 5y ago

I wonder that as well. I don't see any significant connection between Leetcode or Leetcode-style questions and anything resembling what a company theoretically should be looking for in an engineer. The only thing I can come up with is that being able to memorize or otherwise internalize so many different problems is a proxy for intelligence (general mental ability). If so, I suspect it's a fairly weak proxy. But, is that it? In the US, at least, not a lot of employers will give a straight up test of general mental ability (IQ test), likely because they see it as potentially attracting lawsuits. This is because IQ tests show a well-documented racial disparity in scores, which has not been shown to be correlated with anything genetic. Rather, the problem is either traced back to differences in family socioeconomic status growing up, or cultural bias issues with the tests. Everything in the previous paragraph can be verified in a few minutes of Googling, so, I'm not going to litter this comment with citations when the obvious keywords will produce the information mentioned here. But, everything else, including what's to follow this, should be considered pure speculation on my part. Given all this context, I can only think of 2 obvious reasons companies resort to using LC or LC-style interviews: 1. As a proxy for a test of general mental ability, as previously mentioned, or 2. Cargo culting, as with the whole "How would you move Mt. Fuji?" phenomenon. I don't personally have a great deal of insight into which it is, or, if there's a third explanation that I'm completely missing. I also don't know whether there's any research supporting or refuting the idea that LC puzzles provide a valid interview signal for software engineers. All I really know is that these type of problems exercise skills that are not what one uses on the job as a SWE, so, it seems rather illogical to use them as a main component of your hiring process.

dnissley 5y ago
It's a weak proxy for general mental ability, but it's also a signal for high conscientiousness -- someone willing to spend a couple months studying to the test is showing that they have the ability to work hard on something over some length of time.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Why not bring back the civil service exams of Imperial China, then? Surely one's willingness to undertake extended study of the classics of Chinese literature, and to master a stylized form of discourse about them is also a signal of conscientiousness, isn't it? As a "bonus," this is likely to take far longer than the few months people spend practicing Leetcode. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-legged_essay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-legged_essay
  - 2sk21 5y ago
    When I was in grad school for CS, I recall talking to the dean of the department who said that his preferred approach for recruiting CS students would be to have them write a five page essay on any topic of their choice. Anyone who could write a coherent essay would probably make a good researcher. Unfortunately, he was never able to put this into practice - the university administration only considered grades and GRE scores.
- nefitty 5y ago
  I thought my ability to build a prototype in a day showed that. Maybe I should have learned every variation of FizzBuzz instead of learning how node works.
- josephg 5y ago
  Does grinding for months even work? The point of this post (and others like it) is that you can spend years doing leetcode without getting better. In comparison, I score far below most of my peers on conscientiousness but I find leetcode style problems easy. I'm a terrible hire in lots of roles because most companies' problems are boring. I have a history of getting bored and quitting. But I sail through these interviews. If conscientiousness is what companies are going for, I think they're still interviewing wrong.

deleted 5y ago

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kazinator 5y ago

I would move Mount Fuji by having it situated on an island where like three continental plates meet, and then just kick back and watch. So to speak.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
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