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"I think I must have missed the point at which classrooms took on a responsibility for parental productivity?" Why the resentful reaction? Schools DO increase

"I think I must have missed the point at which classrooms took on a responsibility for parental productivity?" Why the resentful reaction? Schools DO increase parent productivity, and that's one among many positive features of a school. It's not a bad thing! I'm proposing that the cost benefit analysis would show that we should invest more in keeping schools safely open, and doing so will probably pay off immediately without even factoring in future harm or benefit to children. It's not wrong to factor in that future, but if there's an immediate justification using even very reductive capitalist thinking then it should be easy to build a consensus. (It's still not easy to build a consensus, but that's because our civil society is running on automatic and we struggle at making even win-win decisions)

quadrifoliate 5y ago
> Schools DO increase parent productivity, and that's one among many positive features of a school. It's not a bad thing! It certainly isn't. What I'm saying is that: - Your repeated statement that "Schools increase parent productivity" is far from proven in the first place (see the point about summer, which is not consider a major 'productivity hit' event at most companies, unlike Christmas or Thanksgiving). - And even if it were true, it's an incidental factor, and not one that is planned for. > ...if there's an immediate justification using even very reductive capitalist thinking then it should be easy to build a consensus. Sure. All I'm saying is that the consensus which you're talking about should emerge from first principles, and should not just happen to fall close to "schools should stay open as usual, disregarding the pandemic sweeping the nation". If schools do indeed have a measurable effect on parental productivity, then the consensus could look like companies being required to enter into a profit sharing arrangement with all the schools of their employees' children.
- geoduck14 5y ago
  >Schools increase parent productivity I'm a parent, and I work-from-home. We just had winter break. I had 2 kids not in school and 2 kids not in day care. I definitely had a productivity drop. I had a meeting where all 4 kids took turns interrupting me. I had things to do, and a daughter would "just appear" and ask me about some weird question. They would come in each afternoon and ask me when I was going to finish work amd play with them - and yes, I played with them (no regrets!). Also, my oldest daughter tested positive for covid yesterday, so we kept all 4 home today. Even with my wife handling the "learning form home", I still got interrupted: how do I log in, what do I need to learn, where is the website, can I eat "this". I'm not sure I follow your point of separating productivity hits from summer/Thanksgiving/Christmas. My points about these past 2 weeks hold for thr upcoming summer.
  - quadrifoliate 5y ago
    Sounds like work from home isn't working great for you, you should probably go into the office to work. Oh wait, but there are probably safety concerns preventing that. You could also get professional childcare for your children to cover the day, but you probably don't want to pay the amount it costs. I am not sure why you don't have a friend or family member watch the kids for a day; few seem to be able to depend on close friends or family members in the US to do things like this that are considered simple favors in some other countries. What I don't understand is why you think things are any different for teachers. People act as if teachers have the same training, PPE, and pay as medical professionals. They don't. (I realize that I'm straying a bit from the point, but so is everyone else. There are far too many anecdotes in this thread that boil down to "I had a bad day with my child's education".)
    - istjohn 5y ago
      You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain to the initial comment in this thread, which simply stated that the costs of this pandemic to children may be much higher than we realize. No one has even argued for a specific policy like keeping schools open no matter the risks. But you seem unwilling to simply concede that this is an ongoing disaster for kids. I mean, remote learning has been a farce, particularly for young students whose parents can't work from home, are technologically or otherwise illiterate, or don't speak English. But I guess it's all our fault because we don't live near retired or underemployed friends or relatives who can take on childcare responsibilities for months on end?
      - quadrifoliate 5y ago
        > You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain [sic] to the initial comment in this thread Teachers do the the bulk of the work in keeping "schools" going. A majority of the essential employees in schools are teachers, but a very large margin (the next biggest is janitors and other support staff). Perhaps I am overreacting because discussion about this I have heard tends to descend into thinly veiled blame for the teachers. A typical disingenuous comment that I have heard repeated ad nauseam is "Oh, we are not blaming the teachers, we just want schools to be open". Well okay, we can throw open the doors then without enough teachers, and I guess the students can just...teach themselves? > But you seem unwilling to simply concede that this is an ongoing disaster for kids. I mean, remote learning has been a farce... Yeah, my statement would certainly be more nuanced than that. I would concede that: - There is an ongoing pandemic that is a disaster, especially with the model of healthcare that we use in the US - It has changed the fabric of our society in many ways, including expectations about "going to work" and childcare - This change has affected children's learning in ways that are unpredictable What I don't get is the isolation of these unpredictable changes to a simple, easily hurled "schools and learning are a disaster" comment. Society is a disaster right now, and unlikely to go back to normal in a hundred ways. > it's all our fault because we don't live near retired or underemployed friends or relatives who can take on childcare responsibilities for months on end? Certainly not, I feel bad for you. I'm just implying that the lack of these is a part of why society (not just "schools") is such a disaster right now. A society with more cohesion that balances responsibility of child rearing across multiple people would have done a much better job.

quadrifoliate 5y ago

> Schools DO increase parent productivity, and that's one among many positive features of a school. It's not a bad thing! It certainly isn't. What I'm saying is that: - Your repeated statement that "Schools increase parent productivity" is far from proven in the first place (see the point about summer, which is not consider a major 'productivity hit' event at most companies, unlike Christmas or Thanksgiving). - And even if it were true, it's an incidental factor, and not one that is planned for. > ...if there's an immediate justification using even very reductive capitalist thinking then it should be easy to build a consensus. Sure. All I'm saying is that the consensus which you're talking about should emerge from first principles, and should not just happen to fall close to "schools should stay open as usual, disregarding the pandemic sweeping the nation". If schools do indeed have a measurable effect on parental productivity, then the consensus could look like companies being required to enter into a profit sharing arrangement with all the schools of their employees' children.

geoduck14 5y ago
>Schools increase parent productivity I'm a parent, and I work-from-home. We just had winter break. I had 2 kids not in school and 2 kids not in day care. I definitely had a productivity drop. I had a meeting where all 4 kids took turns interrupting me. I had things to do, and a daughter would "just appear" and ask me about some weird question. They would come in each afternoon and ask me when I was going to finish work amd play with them - and yes, I played with them (no regrets!). Also, my oldest daughter tested positive for covid yesterday, so we kept all 4 home today. Even with my wife handling the "learning form home", I still got interrupted: how do I log in, what do I need to learn, where is the website, can I eat "this". I'm not sure I follow your point of separating productivity hits from summer/Thanksgiving/Christmas. My points about these past 2 weeks hold for thr upcoming summer.
- quadrifoliate 5y ago
  Sounds like work from home isn't working great for you, you should probably go into the office to work. Oh wait, but there are probably safety concerns preventing that. You could also get professional childcare for your children to cover the day, but you probably don't want to pay the amount it costs. I am not sure why you don't have a friend or family member watch the kids for a day; few seem to be able to depend on close friends or family members in the US to do things like this that are considered simple favors in some other countries. What I don't understand is why you think things are any different for teachers. People act as if teachers have the same training, PPE, and pay as medical professionals. They don't. (I realize that I'm straying a bit from the point, but so is everyone else. There are far too many anecdotes in this thread that boil down to "I had a bad day with my child's education".)
  - istjohn 5y ago
    You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain to the initial comment in this thread, which simply stated that the costs of this pandemic to children may be much higher than we realize. No one has even argued for a specific policy like keeping schools open no matter the risks. But you seem unwilling to simply concede that this is an ongoing disaster for kids. I mean, remote learning has been a farce, particularly for young students whose parents can't work from home, are technologically or otherwise illiterate, or don't speak English. But I guess it's all our fault because we don't live near retired or underemployed friends or relatives who can take on childcare responsibilities for months on end?
    - quadrifoliate 5y ago
      > You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain [sic] to the initial comment in this thread Teachers do the the bulk of the work in keeping "schools" going. A majority of the essential employees in schools are teachers, but a very large margin (the next biggest is janitors and other support staff). Perhaps I am overreacting because discussion about this I have heard tends to descend into thinly veiled blame for the teachers. A typical disingenuous comment that I have heard repeated ad nauseam is "Oh, we are not blaming the teachers, we just want schools to be open". Well okay, we can throw open the doors then without enough teachers, and I guess the students can just...teach themselves? > But you seem unwilling to simply concede that this is an ongoing disaster for kids. I mean, remote learning has been a farce... Yeah, my statement would certainly be more nuanced than that. I would concede that: - There is an ongoing pandemic that is a disaster, especially with the model of healthcare that we use in the US - It has changed the fabric of our society in many ways, including expectations about "going to work" and childcare - This change has affected children's learning in ways that are unpredictable What I don't get is the isolation of these unpredictable changes to a simple, easily hurled "schools and learning are a disaster" comment. Society is a disaster right now, and unlikely to go back to normal in a hundred ways. > it's all our fault because we don't live near retired or underemployed friends or relatives who can take on childcare responsibilities for months on end? Certainly not, I feel bad for you. I'm just implying that the lack of these is a part of why society (not just "schools") is such a disaster right now. A society with more cohesion that balances responsibility of child rearing across multiple people would have done a much better job.