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I have nothing but sympathy and sadness for the plight of the author. It's terrible and unfair. I would certainly rather be snuffed out instantly than have to s

I have nothing but sympathy and sadness for the plight of the author. It's terrible and unfair. I would certainly rather be snuffed out instantly than have to suffer with a long and incurable illness. However I found his last point a betrayal of his life and intelligence. Commenting about afterlife for which there is isn't a scintilla of evidence nor mechanism is a poor way to leave his very moving piece.

tartrate 5y ago
The mind has such a hard time comprehending death that it tries to escape through other views of reality. This can happen regardless of your scientific knowledge or religious beliefs. That's the most interesting takeaway from this piece in my opinion, as I experienced the same while losing a parent to cancer.
killingtime74 5y ago
Even the best among us have weaknesses
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  The fear of nothingness also got to Von Neumann in the end, much to the shock of his friends and family.
  - tomrod 5y ago
    The recognition of the Absurd is the beginning of existential wisdom.
    - oh_sigh 5y ago
      Unfortunately Camus chose the most absurd way to die. It would have been informative if we could see how he lived out his last days with imminent death clearly on his horizon.
  - maroonblazer 5y ago
    I've never understood this fear. We experience nothingness every time we fall asleep, or go under anesthesia. The only difference with death is we never wake up. I find that comforting.
    - killingtime74 5y ago
      I think in both your examples there’s an expectation you’ll wake up
      - maroonblazer 5y ago
        Sure, but that has no bearing on fearing the experience of death itself.
    - oh_sigh 5y ago
      I'm sure von Neumann might have said something similar for 50 years before his death. It might hit different when you're told you have 30 days left if you're lucky.
ok_dad 5y ago
I mean, to me it’s more intelligent to consider we have no idea what’s going to happen after we’re dead and think about possibilities to prepare ourselves just in case our consciousness does end up in some afterlife. I have strong suspicions we’re just dead and nothing happens, but I can’t be certain of that. Reading books and thinking about different afterlives might help if you end up in one. We don’t even barely understand our own universe, which we live in, so who knows what’s possible here?
- tomrod 5y ago
  > I can’t be certain of that This shares notions with simulation theory and other non-falsifiable hypotheses. I take a practical approach here. We exist today. What will we make of it? Regarding these notions, my thought is since no one can be certain, what practical impact does that have? Typically the answer is "none whatsoever."
  - Mertax 5y ago
    Even the OP implies that there is some mental benefit to using hope as a coping mechanism. Even still, I would think most practitioners are doing it because they receive some sort of practical benefit now, in addition to the hope they hold in the afterlife. Most religious communities provide social/emotional/spiritual fulfillment for the parishioner in the present.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  > Reading books and thinking about different afterlives might help if you end up in one Only if it's vaguely similar to the one discussed in the book. If it's completely different it wouldn't help at all.
- collin128 5y ago
  It's interesting when you start to think about the expected value of believing in a religion. Would the correct poker move be to maximize EV by believing in all religions? Not trying to poke fun, just an odd thought that's been bobbing around my brain this week.
tesseract2 5y ago
I am not sure how I would react and what I would think, if I have to face such a situation. Perhaps, under that level of sadness and stress, an aspiration that things will continue in an afterlife is one (only?) thought that would instill hope about future. This is an unusual situation, I think we should expect unusual coping mechanisms.
aldebran 5y ago
I thought it was brilliant. He said the way our brain works we can’t comprehend nothingness easily. It’s hard to deal with death. He said he’s not religious. In the end he finds himself romanticizing the idea of an afterlife (even though he doesn’t think it’ll happen)
- 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
  He's bouncing between bargaining, anger, and acceptance. Can't say I'd react much better.
  - aldebran 5y ago
    Precisely. I feel for him and what he’s going through but at the same time I’m in awe of his writing skills.
thoms_a 5y ago
How is it possible to provide evidence for something that, by definition, lies outside the empirically observable universe? Militant atheism is just as comical as all-knowing theism when faced with the sheer incomprehensibility of existence. The reality is we have no idea what existence entails, and any claims that one does are meant to assuage one's ego more than anything else.
- burnished 5y ago
  What question does a belief in an afterlife answer? If you didn't start with that belief, what observation could you make to come to the conclusion that there is an afterlife? I think you are making these two positions to sound equivalent, but I really don't think that is the case.
  - wyattpeak 5y ago
    Irrespective of the reality of an afterlife, the very fact that the vast majority of cultures seemingly independently developed theories about it suggests that people do, in fact, come to the conclusion that there is an afterlife without starting with the belief. People like to talk about religion as though it's all indoctrination, but the argument really doesn't hold up. Religions that focus on proselytism seem to spread faster, which is unremarkable, but religion definitely seems to form spontaneously.
    - ux-app 5y ago
      >but religion definitely seems to form spontaneously. A lot of things form spontaneously, art, technology, language have all developed spontaneously and independently many times in the past 100,000 years. Religion isn't special in this regard.
      - wyattpeak 5y ago
        Sure, I didn't suggest it was. I was only arguing against this: > If you didn't start with that belief, what observation could you make to come to the conclusion that there is an afterlife? Clearly, lots of observations lead people to the conclusion that there is an afterlife, independent of starting with that belief.
bambax 5y ago
Yeah, what the author is going through is extremely sad, but unfortunately I too found the piece quite superficial. The concept of the "afterlife" is far from universal, in space as well as in time (it has a documented history that begins in Ancient Egypt). Even in the modern Western world, where it used to dominate, it is now disappearing fast. That would be inexplicable if it was part of how the human brain works.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  >Even in the modern Western world, where it used to dominate, it is now disappearing fast. One observation that has been made many times is rather than the afterlife (with its characteristics of rendering judgement onto the unjust and so forth) disappearing, particular in the 20th century, it has been translated into a variety of secular ideologies. If you want to find fantasies about eschatology, eternal life, resurrection of the dead and so on you only need to talk about atheist silicon valley engineers about the singularity.
  - bambax 5y ago
    But if it was part of how the human brain operates it would concern everybody, not just a couple of tech self-proclaimed luminaries who hope to somehow "not die".
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      I think it is deeply engrained in culture. I mean you just need to look at pop culture. I don't think there was ever an age with more disaster / last day type movies or books than right now. Environmental politics (which I support, not to get me wrong) often has the same kind of cataclysmic fears projected on it. There's now services to immortalize your social media presence after you're dead and so on, pretty much mirroring religious ritual. I think there is genuinely few people who have a truly indifferent attitude towards death or last questions, for most it's just been transformed into something that looks superficially non-religious.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 5y ago
hellbannedguy 5y ago
johnwheeler 5y ago
Hold judgement against the dying until you’re dying.
- Dracophoenix 5y ago
  We're all dying as we live. That makes it fair.
  - johnwheeler 5y ago
    “even though you’re right, you’re wrong.”
    - Dracophoenix 5y ago
      Shirou Emiya, is that you?
      - johnwheeler 5y ago
        Huh?
        Dracophoenix 5y ago
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=G5OOIMPJvvQ https://youtube.com/watch?v=G5OOIMPJvvQ
hooande 5y ago
I feel like you completely missed his point. Which was that since the brain functions by making short term predictions about the future, it makes sense that every human culture has focused on the ultimate prediction about the unknown: "what will happen when I die?" not exactly an experiment with a falsifiable hypothesis there, but I found it to be an interesting thought
khazhoux 5y ago
> However I found his last point a betrayal of his life and intelligence. Commenting about afterlife for which there is isn't a scintilla of evidence nor mechanism is a poor way to leave his very moving piece. I think his point is that it's a beautiful fantasy.
TriNetra 5y ago
The evidence are there, in abundance actually. However, where and how one is looking for them could very well be the problem of not being able to perceive the evidence. Just think about it: so far whatever we've invented is based on discoveries of what's already there in the universe. Metals, electricity, fuel, food et al. Only when we started looking for such things with an open mind, with the right tools and at the right place, we were able to perceive them. Similarly, our human history (at least in eastern traditions) has been filled with countless tales of those who had set out to seek answers to questions of soul, God, eternity, life beyond physical body et al, and they did find answers. Not only that, they also left details about various practical ways to reach to that exalted state, for those who dare to be seeker like them.
- bigbluedots 5y ago
  So far, nobody has found answers that are empirically verifiable. Unless that happens, there is no evidence for anything other than what we can see with the tools we have.
warvariuc 5y ago
> However I found his last point a betrayal of his life and intelligence. Sounds a lot like "he betrayed his faith".
yamrzou 5y ago
Isn't the very existence of this world in which we live, an evidence for what lies outside our empirically observable universe? For it can't be created out of nothing?

tartrate 5y ago

The mind has such a hard time comprehending death that it tries to escape through other views of reality. This can happen regardless of your scientific knowledge or religious beliefs. That's the most interesting takeaway from this piece in my opinion, as I experienced the same while losing a parent to cancer.

killingtime74 5y ago

Even the best among us have weaknesses

oh_sigh 5y ago
The fear of nothingness also got to Von Neumann in the end, much to the shock of his friends and family.
- tomrod 5y ago
  The recognition of the Absurd is the beginning of existential wisdom.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Unfortunately Camus chose the most absurd way to die. It would have been informative if we could see how he lived out his last days with imminent death clearly on his horizon.
- maroonblazer 5y ago
  I've never understood this fear. We experience nothingness every time we fall asleep, or go under anesthesia. The only difference with death is we never wake up. I find that comforting.
  - killingtime74 5y ago
    I think in both your examples there’s an expectation you’ll wake up
    - maroonblazer 5y ago
      Sure, but that has no bearing on fearing the experience of death itself.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    I'm sure von Neumann might have said something similar for 50 years before his death. It might hit different when you're told you have 30 days left if you're lucky.

ok_dad 5y ago

I mean, to me it’s more intelligent to consider we have no idea what’s going to happen after we’re dead and think about possibilities to prepare ourselves just in case our consciousness does end up in some afterlife. I have strong suspicions we’re just dead and nothing happens, but I can’t be certain of that. Reading books and thinking about different afterlives might help if you end up in one. We don’t even barely understand our own universe, which we live in, so who knows what’s possible here?

tomrod 5y ago
> I can’t be certain of that This shares notions with simulation theory and other non-falsifiable hypotheses. I take a practical approach here. We exist today. What will we make of it? Regarding these notions, my thought is since no one can be certain, what practical impact does that have? Typically the answer is "none whatsoever."
- Mertax 5y ago
  Even the OP implies that there is some mental benefit to using hope as a coping mechanism. Even still, I would think most practitioners are doing it because they receive some sort of practical benefit now, in addition to the hope they hold in the afterlife. Most religious communities provide social/emotional/spiritual fulfillment for the parishioner in the present.
nicoburns 5y ago
> Reading books and thinking about different afterlives might help if you end up in one Only if it's vaguely similar to the one discussed in the book. If it's completely different it wouldn't help at all.
collin128 5y ago
It's interesting when you start to think about the expected value of believing in a religion. Would the correct poker move be to maximize EV by believing in all religions? Not trying to poke fun, just an odd thought that's been bobbing around my brain this week.

tesseract2 5y ago

I am not sure how I would react and what I would think, if I have to face such a situation. Perhaps, under that level of sadness and stress, an aspiration that things will continue in an afterlife is one (only?) thought that would instill hope about future. This is an unusual situation, I think we should expect unusual coping mechanisms.

aldebran 5y ago

I thought it was brilliant. He said the way our brain works we can’t comprehend nothingness easily. It’s hard to deal with death. He said he’s not religious. In the end he finds himself romanticizing the idea of an afterlife (even though he doesn’t think it’ll happen)

0x0nyandesu 5y ago
He's bouncing between bargaining, anger, and acceptance. Can't say I'd react much better.
- aldebran 5y ago
  Precisely. I feel for him and what he’s going through but at the same time I’m in awe of his writing skills.

thoms_a 5y ago

How is it possible to provide evidence for something that, by definition, lies outside the empirically observable universe? Militant atheism is just as comical as all-knowing theism when faced with the sheer incomprehensibility of existence. The reality is we have no idea what existence entails, and any claims that one does are meant to assuage one's ego more than anything else.

burnished 5y ago
What question does a belief in an afterlife answer? If you didn't start with that belief, what observation could you make to come to the conclusion that there is an afterlife? I think you are making these two positions to sound equivalent, but I really don't think that is the case.
- wyattpeak 5y ago
  Irrespective of the reality of an afterlife, the very fact that the vast majority of cultures seemingly independently developed theories about it suggests that people do, in fact, come to the conclusion that there is an afterlife without starting with the belief. People like to talk about religion as though it's all indoctrination, but the argument really doesn't hold up. Religions that focus on proselytism seem to spread faster, which is unremarkable, but religion definitely seems to form spontaneously.
  - ux-app 5y ago
    >but religion definitely seems to form spontaneously. A lot of things form spontaneously, art, technology, language have all developed spontaneously and independently many times in the past 100,000 years. Religion isn't special in this regard.
    - wyattpeak 5y ago
      Sure, I didn't suggest it was. I was only arguing against this: > If you didn't start with that belief, what observation could you make to come to the conclusion that there is an afterlife? Clearly, lots of observations lead people to the conclusion that there is an afterlife, independent of starting with that belief.

bambax 5y ago

Yeah, what the author is going through is extremely sad, but unfortunately I too found the piece quite superficial. The concept of the "afterlife" is far from universal, in space as well as in time (it has a documented history that begins in Ancient Egypt). Even in the modern Western world, where it used to dominate, it is now disappearing fast. That would be inexplicable if it was part of how the human brain works.

Barrin92 5y ago
>Even in the modern Western world, where it used to dominate, it is now disappearing fast. One observation that has been made many times is rather than the afterlife (with its characteristics of rendering judgement onto the unjust and so forth) disappearing, particular in the 20th century, it has been translated into a variety of secular ideologies. If you want to find fantasies about eschatology, eternal life, resurrection of the dead and so on you only need to talk about atheist silicon valley engineers about the singularity.
- bambax 5y ago
  But if it was part of how the human brain operates it would concern everybody, not just a couple of tech self-proclaimed luminaries who hope to somehow "not die".
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    I think it is deeply engrained in culture. I mean you just need to look at pop culture. I don't think there was ever an age with more disaster / last day type movies or books than right now. Environmental politics (which I support, not to get me wrong) often has the same kind of cataclysmic fears projected on it. There's now services to immortalize your social media presence after you're dead and so on, pretty much mirroring religious ritual. I think there is genuinely few people who have a truly indifferent attitude towards death or last questions, for most it's just been transformed into something that looks superficially non-religious.
ad404b8a372f2b9 5y ago

hellbannedguy 5y ago

johnwheeler 5y ago

Hold judgement against the dying until you’re dying.

Dracophoenix 5y ago
We're all dying as we live. That makes it fair.
- johnwheeler 5y ago
  “even though you’re right, you’re wrong.”
  - Dracophoenix 5y ago
    Shirou Emiya, is that you?
    - johnwheeler 5y ago
      Huh?
      - Dracophoenix 5y ago
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=G5OOIMPJvvQ https://youtube.com/watch?v=G5OOIMPJvvQ

hooande 5y ago

I feel like you completely missed his point. Which was that since the brain functions by making short term predictions about the future, it makes sense that every human culture has focused on the ultimate prediction about the unknown: "what will happen when I die?" not exactly an experiment with a falsifiable hypothesis there, but I found it to be an interesting thought

khazhoux 5y ago

> However I found his last point a betrayal of his life and intelligence. Commenting about afterlife for which there is isn't a scintilla of evidence nor mechanism is a poor way to leave his very moving piece. I think his point is that it's a beautiful fantasy.

TriNetra 5y ago

The evidence are there, in abundance actually. However, where and how one is looking for them could very well be the problem of not being able to perceive the evidence. Just think about it: so far whatever we've invented is based on discoveries of what's already there in the universe. Metals, electricity, fuel, food et al. Only when we started looking for such things with an open mind, with the right tools and at the right place, we were able to perceive them. Similarly, our human history (at least in eastern traditions) has been filled with countless tales of those who had set out to seek answers to questions of soul, God, eternity, life beyond physical body et al, and they did find answers. Not only that, they also left details about various practical ways to reach to that exalted state, for those who dare to be seeker like them.

bigbluedots 5y ago
So far, nobody has found answers that are empirically verifiable. Unless that happens, there is no evidence for anything other than what we can see with the tools we have.

warvariuc 5y ago

> However I found his last point a betrayal of his life and intelligence. Sounds a lot like "he betrayed his faith".

yamrzou 5y ago

Isn't the very existence of this world in which we live, an evidence for what lies outside our empirically observable universe? For it can't be created out of nothing?