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> The schools are funded with rivers of cash. It's simply squandered. More money won't help (that's been tried many times). Sigh. This simply isn't true. I'm

by bsder 5y ago

> The schools are funded with rivers of cash. It's simply squandered. More money won't help (that's been tried many times). Sigh. This simply isn't true. I'm no fan of the Gates Foundation as I think they helicopter in, muck everything up, and then leave picking up the pieces to the locals after they leave again. However, their transparency was at least useful. If you want effective education in younger students, it takes 2 adults in the room (both certified), less than 15 kids in the room, and costs about $15K per student (it's been a while since the study so this number has likely gone up). We spend nowhere near this in education. All initiatives that did this have all been shut down in spite of their documented success. We know what works. We tried it. We have the data. It simply costs more than the political will to implement it.

aidenn0 5y ago
As of 2018, 16 states in the US spend over $15K per student[1]. The US average is either nearly 13k[1] in 2018 or over 14k[2] in 2017. Only 3 countries in the OECD spend $15k or more[2]. 1: https://ncses.nsf.gov/indicators/states/indicator/public-school-per-pupil-expenditures https://ncses.nsf.gov/indicators/states/indicator/public-sch... 2: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd
- bsder 5y ago
  And I've had this discussion before, as well. Comparing the numbers to countries we would like to emulate implies that there is a maximum $1,500 overspend. Maybe. This is far from some magic windfall. Part of the problem with comparing the US to the OECD is the fact that socialized support systems means that auxiliary things like breakfast, lunches, learning disability support, nurses, etc. come out of a different budgetary bucket. This means that Norway, Sweden, etc., for example, actually spend more per student than is recorded because of the auxiliary expenses that are part of their socialized support system. And Norway and Austria already outspend the US (I wonder if they have something that's in the "education" bucket that we don't). If, however, you would like to argue that this being a function of the school budget is a bad thing and that school lunches and medical support should be a fundamental part of universal healthcare for children, I'm all ears.
School-Cotton 5y ago
> Sigh. This simply isn't true. Yes it is. Compare per-student education spending in the US to any other country.
WalterBright 5y ago
The WA teachers' union demanded "fully funded schools" for at least a decade. They finally got it. There was no measurable improvement whatsoever in education.
bsder 5y ago
Here is the original link to the Gates Foundation report from 2014: "Lessons from Research and the Classroom: Implementing High-Quality Pre-K that Makes a Difference for Young Children" https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/documents/Lessons%20from%20Research%20and%20the%20Classroom_September%202014.pdf https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/documents/Lessons%20from%20... Everything in the report is 2012 dollars. Scale appropriately for today. Boston Pre-K is about $15K now while New Jersey would be about $18K now. These are minimums. More money doesn't guarantee success, but less money almost guarantees failure. And here is a link talking about Martin Walsh (Mayor of Boston) trying to get the money to pay for what that report calls an "exemplar program": https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/02/22/metro/eight-years-after-walshs-promises-boston-prekindergarten-is-still-not-universal/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/02/22/metro/eight-years-aft... All of the other exemplar programs were cancelled for lack of funding. You can persist in believing that there is some magic pot of money flying around education, or you can simply observe cancelled successful programs and teachers asking for donations to buy school supplies. Your call.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > teachers asking for donations to buy school supplies. Around here, the school district has razed the local schools and built fancy new buildings. Then they ask for donations to buy pencils, at what, 5 cents apiece? Does something seem wrong with this picture? Let's put it another way. $15,000 per student. 30 students per class. This is $450,000 per classroom per year. No, lack of funding is not the problem.
  - bsder 5y ago
    > Around here, the school district has razed the local schools and built fancy new buildings. I see this too. Might I suggest that the school board get voted out? Part of the reason why new buildings get built is because it's easier to get the funding for a new building than to get the funding for 10 more teachers. A new building is normally a simple bond proposition on the ballot and it's off and running. Hiring 10 extra teachers requires that the superintendent go to the school board (who will oppose it because "muh taxes"), then the local political entity (who will oppose it because "muh taxes") and maybe have to file a justification with the state. And don't get me started about how funding can always be found for new sports facilities but God help you if you need a new lab. (I would also point out that $500K gets you probably 10 teachers for a single year. You are thinking that $500K is some big amount of money when it doesn't even pay for a single teacher for 30 years (roughly $1.5 million)).

by bsder 5y ago

aidenn0 5y ago

As of 2018, 16 states in the US spend over $15K per student[1]. The US average is either nearly 13k[1] in 2018 or over 14k[2] in 2017. Only 3 countries in the OECD spend $15k or more[2]. 1: https://ncses.nsf.gov/indicators/states/indicator/public-school-per-pupil-expenditures https://ncses.nsf.gov/indicators/states/indicator/public-sch... 2: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd

bsder 5y ago
And I've had this discussion before, as well. Comparing the numbers to countries we would like to emulate implies that there is a maximum $1,500 overspend. Maybe. This is far from some magic windfall. Part of the problem with comparing the US to the OECD is the fact that socialized support systems means that auxiliary things like breakfast, lunches, learning disability support, nurses, etc. come out of a different budgetary bucket. This means that Norway, Sweden, etc., for example, actually spend more per student than is recorded because of the auxiliary expenses that are part of their socialized support system. And Norway and Austria already outspend the US (I wonder if they have something that's in the "education" bucket that we don't). If, however, you would like to argue that this being a function of the school budget is a bad thing and that school lunches and medical support should be a fundamental part of universal healthcare for children, I'm all ears.

School-Cotton 5y ago

> Sigh. This simply isn't true. Yes it is. Compare per-student education spending in the US to any other country.

WalterBright 5y ago

The WA teachers' union demanded "fully funded schools" for at least a decade. They finally got it. There was no measurable improvement whatsoever in education.

bsder 5y ago

Here is the original link to the Gates Foundation report from 2014: "Lessons from Research and the Classroom: Implementing High-Quality Pre-K that Makes a Difference for Young Children" https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/documents/Lessons%20from%20Research%20and%20the%20Classroom_September%202014.pdf https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/documents/Lessons%20from%20... Everything in the report is 2012 dollars. Scale appropriately for today. Boston Pre-K is about $15K now while New Jersey would be about $18K now. These are minimums. More money doesn't guarantee success, but less money almost guarantees failure. And here is a link talking about Martin Walsh (Mayor of Boston) trying to get the money to pay for what that report calls an "exemplar program": https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/02/22/metro/eight-years-after-walshs-promises-boston-prekindergarten-is-still-not-universal/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/02/22/metro/eight-years-aft... All of the other exemplar programs were cancelled for lack of funding. You can persist in believing that there is some magic pot of money flying around education, or you can simply observe cancelled successful programs and teachers asking for donations to buy school supplies. Your call.

WalterBright 5y ago
> teachers asking for donations to buy school supplies. Around here, the school district has razed the local schools and built fancy new buildings. Then they ask for donations to buy pencils, at what, 5 cents apiece? Does something seem wrong with this picture? Let's put it another way. $15,000 per student. 30 students per class. This is $450,000 per classroom per year. No, lack of funding is not the problem.
- bsder 5y ago
  > Around here, the school district has razed the local schools and built fancy new buildings. I see this too. Might I suggest that the school board get voted out? Part of the reason why new buildings get built is because it's easier to get the funding for a new building than to get the funding for 10 more teachers. A new building is normally a simple bond proposition on the ballot and it's off and running. Hiring 10 extra teachers requires that the superintendent go to the school board (who will oppose it because "muh taxes"), then the local political entity (who will oppose it because "muh taxes") and maybe have to file a justification with the state. And don't get me started about how funding can always be found for new sports facilities but God help you if you need a new lab. (I would also point out that $500K gets you probably 10 teachers for a single year. You are thinking that $500K is some big amount of money when it doesn't even pay for a single teacher for 30 years (roughly $1.5 million)).