5 ms·

True, but the idea that physiological addiction is more real than psychological addiction is certainly outdated.

by zepto 5y ago

notch656a 5y ago
Both are real? Of course. However: Psychological addiction can drive you to kill yourself but except in the most extreme of corner cases can I imagine how you could involuntarily die. Physiological addiction can straight up execute you (see alcohol or benzo withdrawal).
- zepto 5y ago
  Most people who stop drinking alcohol are not ‘straight up executed’, so that seems like that’s a corner case too.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    "Most" seems like a high bar. Corner case I guess is unfair wording because it's totally undefinable. The DTs does choose to execute some people, especially if they can't reach treatment. I guess psychological stress can as well in rare events, although for an otherwise healthy person I would always pick the most crushing psychological stress over suffering untreated DT.
    - zepto 5y ago
      Why does it have to be untreated? That seems like a bizarre criterion. It’s much easier to treat DTs than it is to treat a psychological addiction.
      - notch656a 5y ago
        Well for one because alcohol and alcoholics are virtually all over the world and it isn't clear to me that the majority of alcoholics in the world both know about the risks of DT and have access to treatment. But it is my understanding even with EARLY appropriate treatment there is an expectation 1+% of those suffering DT will die.
        zepto 5y ago
        How many alcoholics suffer DT? Clearly not most. Most people just go to a support group and try to abstain, and they do not die. If deaths from DT were more than a corner case, then AA would be be considered to be a suicide pact.
        notch656a 5y ago
        AA specifically works with health care workers specifically because of this and other problems. If "most" is your bar then death is only a corner case of attempted suicide. Although I thought I admitted that "corner case" was just a poor choice of undefinable wording on my part. ~%5% odds of getting DTs and then 25% of death untreated and 1-5% chance treated don't sound great to me. Treated death of all alcoholics rate looks somewhere between flu and covid death rate and untreated death rate is much worse than covid death rate in populaton. People seem worried about covid death and not considering that a corner case.
        zepto 5y ago
        Sure, but you’re forgetting the point of this. You are trying to claim that psychological addiction isn’t as real as physiological addiction, not just for alcohol. It’s clear that you care a lot about alcoholics with DT’s. What isn’t clear is why you want to deny the difficulties of people who have psychological addictions to any kind of drug. Is it just a numbers game for you?
        notch656a 5y ago
        >You are trying to claim that psychological addiction isn’t as real as physiological addiction, not just for alcohol. I never said such a thing and this is just a malevolent and calculated lie. >What isn’t clear is why you want to deny the difficulties of people who have psychological addictions to any kind of drug. It's not clear because no such denial exists, and it's only alleged as part of a malevolent and calculated lie. My original comment said they were both real. I'm saying regarding being straight up executed, the numbers game is that psychological addiction doesn't look nearly as likely to straight up execute you. I've said nothing to say psychologist addiction isn't a difficult for some people. I don't know about you, but I think it's extremely important, ESPECIALLY FOR PEOPLE WITH EXPERIENCE IN PSYCHOLOGICALLY ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCES who have perhaps had insanely hard struggles with things like opiates to understand that no amount of willpower will spare them from the very real chance of involuntary death from benzo or alcohol withdrawal. You've built a straw man as tall as the wall of china is wide.
jklinger410 5y ago
Physiological addiction is more real in that your body forms a physical dependency on something that can kill you if you don't have it. This is CRUCIAL to understanding why we need stuff like Methadone or Kratom to help ween people off of Heroin/opioids. Mental addiction is treated entirely differently and is far less severe.
- zepto 5y ago
  > Physiological addiction is more real No it isn’t. > in that your body forms a physical dependency on something that can kill you if you don't have it. Yes, sometimes it can kill to withdraw without support. But that isn’t what makes something real or not. > Mental addiction is treated entirely differently and is far less severe. Is it? Can you support that claim? I’ve seen pot addicts ruin their lives and die. That doesn’t seem ‘far less severe’ to me.

True, but the idea that physiological addiction is more real than psychological addiction is certainly outdated.

by zepto 5y ago

True, but the idea that physiological addiction is more real than psychological addiction is certainly outdated.

Both are real? Of course. However: Psychological addiction can drive you to kill yourself but except in the most extreme of corner cases can I imagine how you could involuntarily die. Physiological addiction can straight up execute you (see alcohol or benzo withdrawal).

zepto 5y ago
Most people who stop drinking alcohol are not ‘straight up executed’, so that seems like that’s a corner case too.
- notch656a 5y ago
  "Most" seems like a high bar. Corner case I guess is unfair wording because it's totally undefinable. The DTs does choose to execute some people, especially if they can't reach treatment. I guess psychological stress can as well in rare events, although for an otherwise healthy person I would always pick the most crushing psychological stress over suffering untreated DT.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Why does it have to be untreated? That seems like a bizarre criterion. It’s much easier to treat DTs than it is to treat a psychological addiction.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      Well for one because alcohol and alcoholics are virtually all over the world and it isn't clear to me that the majority of alcoholics in the world both know about the risks of DT and have access to treatment. But it is my understanding even with EARLY appropriate treatment there is an expectation 1+% of those suffering DT will die.
      - zepto 5y ago
        How many alcoholics suffer DT? Clearly not most. Most people just go to a support group and try to abstain, and they do not die. If deaths from DT were more than a corner case, then AA would be be considered to be a suicide pact.
        notch656a 5y ago
        AA specifically works with health care workers specifically because of this and other problems. If "most" is your bar then death is only a corner case of attempted suicide. Although I thought I admitted that "corner case" was just a poor choice of undefinable wording on my part. ~%5% odds of getting DTs and then 25% of death untreated and 1-5% chance treated don't sound great to me. Treated death of all alcoholics rate looks somewhere between flu and covid death rate and untreated death rate is much worse than covid death rate in populaton. People seem worried about covid death and not considering that a corner case.
        zepto 5y ago
        Sure, but you’re forgetting the point of this. You are trying to claim that psychological addiction isn’t as real as physiological addiction, not just for alcohol. It’s clear that you care a lot about alcoholics with DT’s. What isn’t clear is why you want to deny the difficulties of people who have psychological addictions to any kind of drug. Is it just a numbers game for you?
        notch656a 5y ago
        >You are trying to claim that psychological addiction isn’t as real as physiological addiction, not just for alcohol. I never said such a thing and this is just a malevolent and calculated lie. >What isn’t clear is why you want to deny the difficulties of people who have psychological addictions to any kind of drug. It's not clear because no such denial exists, and it's only alleged as part of a malevolent and calculated lie. My original comment said they were both real. I'm saying regarding being straight up executed, the numbers game is that psychological addiction doesn't look nearly as likely to straight up execute you. I've said nothing to say psychologist addiction isn't a difficult for some people. I don't know about you, but I think it's extremely important, ESPECIALLY FOR PEOPLE WITH EXPERIENCE IN PSYCHOLOGICALLY ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCES who have perhaps had insanely hard struggles with things like opiates to understand that no amount of willpower will spare them from the very real chance of involuntary death from benzo or alcohol withdrawal. You've built a straw man as tall as the wall of china is wide.

jklinger410 5y ago

Physiological addiction is more real in that your body forms a physical dependency on something that can kill you if you don't have it. This is CRUCIAL to understanding why we need stuff like Methadone or Kratom to help ween people off of Heroin/opioids. Mental addiction is treated entirely differently and is far less severe.

zepto 5y ago
> Physiological addiction is more real No it isn’t. > in that your body forms a physical dependency on something that can kill you if you don't have it. Yes, sometimes it can kill to withdraw without support. But that isn’t what makes something real or not. > Mental addiction is treated entirely differently and is far less severe. Is it? Can you support that claim? I’ve seen pot addicts ruin their lives and die. That doesn’t seem ‘far less severe’ to me.