6 ms·

my friend had a psychotic break while on it. we later found out he was bipolar. The title seems accurate, but you never know what disease you may have until it

my friend had a psychotic break while on it. we later found out he was bipolar. The title seems accurate, but you never know what disease you may have until it actually manifests so be careful

jabej 5y ago
Exactly what I was thinking. “In healthy people”… how do you know you don’t have latent schizophrenia? Slightly related https://old.reddit.com/r/HPPD/ https://old.reddit.com/r/HPPD/
- friendly_chap 5y ago
  Why did you link that HPPD subreddit? I used to have visual snow a lot, does it have anything to do with latent schizophrenia?
  - jabej 5y ago
    No, I linked to it to show how using these drugs can have permanent effects on you. Only slightly related to the rest of my comment.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- wrinkl3 5y ago
  Afaik HPPD and schizophrenia are distinct conditions, most people with HPPD don't report any symptoms common in schizophrenia.
- otherme123 5y ago
  Funny how intolerable are those "latent" diagnostics for illegal drugs, and meanwhile the totally legal and widely prescribed trazodone (an antidepresant) is known to cause, among others 1) suicidal thoughts, 2) insomnia, 3) hallucinations, 4) and paranoia. Other common drug, bromazepan, turns you into a half zombi, loss of ability to remember and amnesia, hallucinations... And it has a bad widthdrawal. Of course you have to be careful when taking LSD, psilocybin or whatever. But don't replace info with FUD: just study, legalize and put the info in the box when sold. They are not worse than 95% of widely prescribed drugs. They are illegal just because they are also enjoyable.
- Synaesthesia 5y ago
  Psychedelic drugs push anyone towards a psychotic state, and really can teach you something about mental illness by giving you a view into their world. But yes it can cause psychotic break, especially LSD but shrooms too.
j4hdufd8 5y ago
are you sure he was unaware of any mental illnesses? how did he prepare for the trip? was he familiar with set & setting and other such recommendations?
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Psychedelics don’t cause bipolar. What it can do is reveal it. (Or make it worse.) I didn’t get diagnosed until I was 32 after a massive psychotic break caused by stress, despite mania, paranoia, and depression clearly starting when I was 9-years-old. My mom suspected but never told me.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Does the reveal make bipolar treatment possible that was otherwise not being provided previously? It almost sounds like it can be used as a diagnostic tool for surfacing certain neurological disorders that otherwise might go untreated.
    - kayodelycaon 5y ago
      Psychotic breaks can be extremely damaging. I'm still recovering from the one I had in August 2018. There are less dangerous ways to diagnose possible disorders. (Family history is a major red flag.)
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        Good to know. I believe the genetic markers are pretty well known for some disorders; perhaps a component in diagnostics besides family history (which can be an issue if your parent was never diagnosed, died young, you’re adopted, etc).
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Psychedelics don’t cause bipolar. What it can do is reveal it. (Or make it worse.) AFAIK, we don't know enough about the mechanics of bipolar disorder to rule out anything that causes you to transition from not meeting the diagnostic criteria to meeting them as being a cause rather than a revelation of some existing underlying problem. If it makes you transition to meeting the diagnostic criteria, it causes the disorder as best we understand it now and anything else is speculation.
wayoutthere 5y ago
Yeah, a lot of people try to ascribe a causal link from drugs to mental illness when it’s probably the other way around. People undiagnosed but suffering from early stage mental illness often self-medicate, combined with the fact that there’s a lot of overlap in the ages where people experiment with drugs and when mental illness typically presents itself enough to lead to a diagnosis.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  The thing is… all of these happen because excessive drug use can cause mental illness. The problem is people assume drug use is always the cause. This isn’t helped by many people treating mental illness as a character flaw.
penjelly 5y ago
how do you retroactively determine that he always had it? A psychotic break could be the root cause of bipolar disorder, couldnt it?
misc213 5y ago
Are you able to share the dosage your friend took?
- dvngnt_ 5y ago
  Probably not, but I assume a recreational dose is greater than a therapeutic another friend took the same amount and he was perfectly fine, but my friend became really paranoid (government hiding people to torture, signals sent through TV, people trying to kill him). he was a heavy cannabis and alcohol user in high school which could have been a sign of self-medication, but that was the first time he really had a negative experience. At the time, we thought he was schizophrenic, but he got a bipolar diagnoses later from doctors. It's been a struggle with sobriety and mental health for over a decade. Mushroom didn't cause it, but it was definitely a notable moment in his life
ragnese 5y ago
Right. I'm not anti-recreational-drug-use, but this assertion that gets repeated all the time feels damn close to a tautology. "The drug didn't cause you to go crazy. You just had underlying craziness that never manifested before using the drug and might never have manifested if you never used the drug." Consider this my raised eyebrow. Even if it's really technically true, it's effectively a vacuous and unfalsifiable statement when it comes to an individual person, and one can't use the information at all when estimating the risk of their potential recreational activity.
- asdffdsa 5y ago
  What kind of foolish arrogance is this? Though I've never been diagnosed and live a normal life, I've had mood swings and extended family history of schizophrenia. Because of this, and the knowledge that there are certain triggers that can cause lifelong neurological issues, I'll never try acid or other hallucinogens. The value of knowing that "underlying craziness" can exist is in inherently reminding us of the actual risk. Let's say someone predisposed toward neurological issues is on the fence, but ultimately decides to follow the reasoning in the comment. What liability are you going to bear for it?
  - ragnese 5y ago
    My last sentence wasn't worded very well. I was speaking in a hypothetical context of someone having a mental issue revealed by drug use and some hypothetical person defending the drug as not being the "cause" of the mental illness. My point was that the person who pedantically highlights that some drug didn't technically cause a mental illness is being anti-helpful. To go around and preach that XYZ drug doesn't cause mental problems is dishonest in any colloquial understanding of the situation, unless you state VERY clearly, at the same time, that it may TRIGGER or reveal underlying issues. So, I was basically saying exactly what you said. If you read my entire comment in one piece, I'm pretty sure it's clear enough that I meant that there's no actionable difference between "drug causes schizophrenia" and "drug activates latent schizophrenia" on an individual, human, level. Academically, it's a meaningful distinction, but not for an individual evaluating whether they want to try something.
  - 5y ago
ScoobleDoodle 5y ago
I had a friend in high school who took mushrooms and said they never felt like the same person since then. That statement was made in high school and reiterated in their late 20s. I don't know what dosage they took. I don't know if they had other mental health conditions, though it seemed like they had some degree of alcoholism. I have dealt with depression and have my eye on some form of Psilocybin treatment as a future option. But am weary due to my friend's experience. So I'm waiting for more expertise to be developed and the treatment to be validated and consequences quantified.
blackowl 5y ago
Similar experience here, but with a different hallucinogen. It has forever changed me, so I wanted to share. My close friend had a psychotic break due to daily marijuana use and is now on psychiatric drugs to control symptoms. She was always creative, but she could tell the difference between fantasy and reality. During the break, it was like she was rolling constantly and couldn't stop. She was hearing voices. Thinking that 2D images were alive. For months on end. She was ranting, crying, acting uncharacteristically pompous, then crumbling into a heap of shame. This is a professional middle-aged person who was living a full life. My understanding is that for folks who are genetically predisposed, a life trigger can manifest in a mental health condition that likely never would have surfaced. Triggers may include in utero trauma, child abuse or chemical imbalance due to stress or controlled substances. Hallucinogens can trigger a serious mental health condition in an individual who may have lived an otherwise mentally stable life. Not unlike needing to watch cholesterol in a family who suffers from heart disease, perhaps. So, yeah, when I read "... in healthy people" it made me go hmmmm. But still, psilocybin is not marijuana. And this is great news for those suffering from treatment-resistant depression and PTSD.

my friend had a psychotic break while on it. we later found out he was bipolar. The title seems accurate, but you never know what disease you may have until it actually manifests so be careful

jabej 5y ago

Exactly what I was thinking. “In healthy people”… how do you know you don’t have latent schizophrenia? Slightly related https://old.reddit.com/r/HPPD/ https://old.reddit.com/r/HPPD/

friendly_chap 5y ago
Why did you link that HPPD subreddit? I used to have visual snow a lot, does it have anything to do with latent schizophrenia?
- jabej 5y ago
  No, I linked to it to show how using these drugs can have permanent effects on you. Only slightly related to the rest of my comment.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
wrinkl3 5y ago
Afaik HPPD and schizophrenia are distinct conditions, most people with HPPD don't report any symptoms common in schizophrenia.
otherme123 5y ago
Funny how intolerable are those "latent" diagnostics for illegal drugs, and meanwhile the totally legal and widely prescribed trazodone (an antidepresant) is known to cause, among others 1) suicidal thoughts, 2) insomnia, 3) hallucinations, 4) and paranoia. Other common drug, bromazepan, turns you into a half zombi, loss of ability to remember and amnesia, hallucinations... And it has a bad widthdrawal. Of course you have to be careful when taking LSD, psilocybin or whatever. But don't replace info with FUD: just study, legalize and put the info in the box when sold. They are not worse than 95% of widely prescribed drugs. They are illegal just because they are also enjoyable.
Synaesthesia 5y ago
Psychedelic drugs push anyone towards a psychotic state, and really can teach you something about mental illness by giving you a view into their world. But yes it can cause psychotic break, especially LSD but shrooms too.

j4hdufd8 5y ago

are you sure he was unaware of any mental illnesses? how did he prepare for the trip? was he familiar with set & setting and other such recommendations?

kayodelycaon 5y ago
Psychedelics don’t cause bipolar. What it can do is reveal it. (Or make it worse.) I didn’t get diagnosed until I was 32 after a massive psychotic break caused by stress, despite mania, paranoia, and depression clearly starting when I was 9-years-old. My mom suspected but never told me.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Does the reveal make bipolar treatment possible that was otherwise not being provided previously? It almost sounds like it can be used as a diagnostic tool for surfacing certain neurological disorders that otherwise might go untreated.
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    Psychotic breaks can be extremely damaging. I'm still recovering from the one I had in August 2018. There are less dangerous ways to diagnose possible disorders. (Family history is a major red flag.)
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Good to know. I believe the genetic markers are pretty well known for some disorders; perhaps a component in diagnostics besides family history (which can be an issue if your parent was never diagnosed, died young, you’re adopted, etc).
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Psychedelics don’t cause bipolar. What it can do is reveal it. (Or make it worse.) AFAIK, we don't know enough about the mechanics of bipolar disorder to rule out anything that causes you to transition from not meeting the diagnostic criteria to meeting them as being a cause rather than a revelation of some existing underlying problem. If it makes you transition to meeting the diagnostic criteria, it causes the disorder as best we understand it now and anything else is speculation.

wayoutthere 5y ago

Yeah, a lot of people try to ascribe a causal link from drugs to mental illness when it’s probably the other way around. People undiagnosed but suffering from early stage mental illness often self-medicate, combined with the fact that there’s a lot of overlap in the ages where people experiment with drugs and when mental illness typically presents itself enough to lead to a diagnosis.

kayodelycaon 5y ago
The thing is… all of these happen because excessive drug use can cause mental illness. The problem is people assume drug use is always the cause. This isn’t helped by many people treating mental illness as a character flaw.

penjelly 5y ago

how do you retroactively determine that he always had it? A psychotic break could be the root cause of bipolar disorder, couldnt it?

misc213 5y ago

Are you able to share the dosage your friend took?

dvngnt_ 5y ago
Probably not, but I assume a recreational dose is greater than a therapeutic another friend took the same amount and he was perfectly fine, but my friend became really paranoid (government hiding people to torture, signals sent through TV, people trying to kill him). he was a heavy cannabis and alcohol user in high school which could have been a sign of self-medication, but that was the first time he really had a negative experience. At the time, we thought he was schizophrenic, but he got a bipolar diagnoses later from doctors. It's been a struggle with sobriety and mental health for over a decade. Mushroom didn't cause it, but it was definitely a notable moment in his life

ragnese 5y ago

Right. I'm not anti-recreational-drug-use, but this assertion that gets repeated all the time feels damn close to a tautology. "The drug didn't cause you to go crazy. You just had underlying craziness that never manifested before using the drug and might never have manifested if you never used the drug." Consider this my raised eyebrow. Even if it's really technically true, it's effectively a vacuous and unfalsifiable statement when it comes to an individual person, and one can't use the information at all when estimating the risk of their potential recreational activity.

asdffdsa 5y ago
What kind of foolish arrogance is this? Though I've never been diagnosed and live a normal life, I've had mood swings and extended family history of schizophrenia. Because of this, and the knowledge that there are certain triggers that can cause lifelong neurological issues, I'll never try acid or other hallucinogens. The value of knowing that "underlying craziness" can exist is in inherently reminding us of the actual risk. Let's say someone predisposed toward neurological issues is on the fence, but ultimately decides to follow the reasoning in the comment. What liability are you going to bear for it?
- ragnese 5y ago
  My last sentence wasn't worded very well. I was speaking in a hypothetical context of someone having a mental issue revealed by drug use and some hypothetical person defending the drug as not being the "cause" of the mental illness. My point was that the person who pedantically highlights that some drug didn't technically cause a mental illness is being anti-helpful. To go around and preach that XYZ drug doesn't cause mental problems is dishonest in any colloquial understanding of the situation, unless you state VERY clearly, at the same time, that it may TRIGGER or reveal underlying issues. So, I was basically saying exactly what you said. If you read my entire comment in one piece, I'm pretty sure it's clear enough that I meant that there's no actionable difference between "drug causes schizophrenia" and "drug activates latent schizophrenia" on an individual, human, level. Academically, it's a meaningful distinction, but not for an individual evaluating whether they want to try something.
- 5y ago

ScoobleDoodle 5y ago

I had a friend in high school who took mushrooms and said they never felt like the same person since then. That statement was made in high school and reiterated in their late 20s. I don't know what dosage they took. I don't know if they had other mental health conditions, though it seemed like they had some degree of alcoholism. I have dealt with depression and have my eye on some form of Psilocybin treatment as a future option. But am weary due to my friend's experience. So I'm waiting for more expertise to be developed and the treatment to be validated and consequences quantified.

blackowl 5y ago

Similar experience here, but with a different hallucinogen. It has forever changed me, so I wanted to share. My close friend had a psychotic break due to daily marijuana use and is now on psychiatric drugs to control symptoms. She was always creative, but she could tell the difference between fantasy and reality. During the break, it was like she was rolling constantly and couldn't stop. She was hearing voices. Thinking that 2D images were alive. For months on end. She was ranting, crying, acting uncharacteristically pompous, then crumbling into a heap of shame. This is a professional middle-aged person who was living a full life. My understanding is that for folks who are genetically predisposed, a life trigger can manifest in a mental health condition that likely never would have surfaced. Triggers may include in utero trauma, child abuse or chemical imbalance due to stress or controlled substances. Hallucinogens can trigger a serious mental health condition in an individual who may have lived an otherwise mentally stable life. Not unlike needing to watch cholesterol in a family who suffers from heart disease, perhaps. So, yeah, when I read "... in healthy people" it made me go hmmmm. But still, psilocybin is not marijuana. And this is great news for those suffering from treatment-resistant depression and PTSD.