7 ms·

That's nonsense, though, and assumes that the dangers posed by an electric car are roughly the same as by an ICE car. 400 or 800 volts is no joke, and nothing t

That's nonsense, though, and assumes that the dangers posed by an electric car are roughly the same as by an ICE car. 400 or 800 volts is no joke, and nothing that you find under the hood of an ICE car is anywhere even close to being as dangerous as that.

hangonhn 5y ago
Agreed. I work on my own cars but they're all ICE. Once the car is jacked up onto jack stands, I feel pretty safe working on my car because there is nothing moving nor live (except for the 12v, which I can disconnect). I don't know if that's the case for EVs.
- onphonenow 5y ago
  Yeah, Rossmann is kind of an idiot. An EV car has high / deadly energy in its high voltage side. If you are going to do hundreds of volts and hundreds of amps to get a heavy vehicle to 60mph in 3 seconds, you simply must have some pretty high potential energy ready to go. I'm kind of surprised they don't have warnings for folks like first responders as well - imagine cutting through a tesla - seems if you go through a HV cable you could just create a big problem.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    It's a good question. I assume there's some amount of consistent design that allows safe assumptions on the part of emergency responders. Like not running fuel lines through doors and pillars. I have no idea if such a standard exists. Here's the first quack, looks like some fire departments actually do train on Teslas. Not sure if they also train on other models. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-jaws-of-life-first-responder-training/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-jaws-of-life-first-r...
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Cables aren't fuel lines. If you short a HV cable, the battery BMS WILL trip, and the battery will be disconnected. If it doesn't, it's gross negligence on the part of Tesla.
      - mulmen 5y ago
        Ok but there's still no reason to run HV cables through pillars, right? Like part of the design of the car is to be hacked open after an accident.
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        Yup, agreed.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    If you cut through a HV cable while wearing basic protective equipment, you will trip the BMS and be fine. In the same way you have to disconnect a few things to make an ICE vehicle safe to use, you have to simply disconnect the battery, and it will be safe. This can be easily engineered. Louis Rossman isn't an idiot, he worked on EVs with voltages high enough to injure you (and so have I), and he's correct.
    - onphonenow 5y ago
      He is clearly an idiot if he can't open that front but claims he is technically skilled enough to work on HV. That doesn't work together. Either you are able to do some basic mechanical and thinking work (in which case you can easily open the front) or you can't figure it out - in which case you really should not be poking around in there. You literally just have to remove a plastic cover. If you can't figure that out there are many youtube videos showing you how to do this. If you are too dumb to figure that out, then you shouldn't be under there. Note that "you have to simply disconnect the battery" - is not as simple as you make it sound. I think they even pulled the window washer fluid out from under there. Anyways, the outrage over this is totally ridiculous and folks who can't figure out how to open this hood - yes, probably idiots. There is a new sort of thing - "learned helplessness" is maybe a good term? It's like critical thinking skills are disengaged. I'm reminded of small children who sort of flop around even when the thing they want is right there for them to grab. If folks would engage critical thinking skills a bit more I think a lot of these issues would diminish in terms of being barriers AND you might also understand why a company selling a luxury car to owners who in most cases do NONE of their own servicing might take this approach.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        He can figure out how to open it. That's not the issue. The issue is the car telling that you're not allowed to do it that's the issue. I can't think of a car telling me that I don't have the permission to repair it before. As far as disconnecting the battery, I agree that on many EVs it's needlessly complicated to know that the HV circuit is de-energized and to put it in that state. That's the fault of the manufacturer, and it shouldn't be acceptable.
  - dreamcompiler 5y ago
    https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That is the case for EVs. You can disconnect the batteries and feel perfectly safe.
- lamontcg 5y ago
  > Once the car is jacked up onto jack stands, I feel pretty safe working on my car Lots of people have been killed because they didn't use jack stands or didn't use them right.
baybal2 5y ago
A lot of springs with preload force enough to fatally injure, not a problem?
floatingatoll 5y ago
For the unaware, an ICE car is an “internal combustion engine” car — one that’s fueled with gas. (Cross-boundary terminology issues with gas/electric combination engines are solved by calling those “hybrids”, as a shorthand for “dual-engine ICE & EV hybrid” which no one ever says but is technically correct.)
- bserge 5y ago
- laurensr 5y ago
  As a non-native English speaker, I've always wondered why the term 'internal' is included in ICE. Is it because the combustion takes place in a chambers somewhere inside the engine?
  - mulmen 5y ago
    Yes, combustion is internal. Compare this to an external combustion engine, like a steam engine, which uses an external heat source to boil water.
    - floatingatoll 5y ago
      TIL, makes sense. Didn’t think of it as “combusts inside the engine” versus “combusts next to the engine”.
  - Treblemaker 5y ago
    > Is it because the combustion takes place in a chambers somewhere inside the engine Yes, it is. Compare with "External Combustion Engine" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_combustion_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_combustion_engine
throwaway946513 5y ago
> an ICE car isn't anywhere close to as dangerous as an EV I fundamentally disagree with the premise that just because something is dangerous that the owner of said property is 'disallowed' from operating on it. I can own a house, and do all the electrical work myself. That's 120v AC for you North American households, or in rare situations 240v AC for certain appliances. I serviced an electric range just two months ago. If you understand how something works, what the requirements are to repair it, then you should understand the caution you must take when repairing those objects. I work on my own vehicle all the time. Yes, it is a gasoline powered vehicle. But the brakes on both an electric car and gas car must work. Something which is an easy repair and maintenance item is an object of which I know numerous drivers who would dare not touch, "because I don't want to break it". Which, is absolutely okay for those who would not want to work on it. But when someone who has the skills, knowledge, and abilities to work on a vehicle is told "no, you can't touch this brake because it requires a special RFID screwdriver to remove" That's the crux of the argument. If something so dangerous is refrained from the owner being enabled to even inspect or maintain/repair such an object, then it's likely that said consumer item is not for consumers, and shouldn't be sold.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  The power in your house is significantly less powerful than that in an electric car. There are also clear ways to disconnect the power when working on things in your house, which is not at all as clear in a battery-powered car. They are clearly more dangerous than home electrics. Also, nobody is "disallowing" anything. You can still open up this car. There is just no reason to.
KennyBlanken 5y ago
You mean like the ignition system which is over 20,000 volts? Moving parts that can chop off digits, deglove limbs, descalp, break limbs when clothing is caught and wrapped into them? Hydraulic hoses with enough pressure that a leak can cause injection injuries, which can be fatal? Pressurized coolant systems well over boiling that can severely burn a significant portion of the skin on your torso if opened, because many car companies use caps that completely release at a certain point, allowing them to blow off and gallons of coolant to come out? You won't find high voltage anywhere on an EV except in the battery pack until the vehicle is switched on and the drivetrain computer closes the high voltage contactor inside the battery pack. Ie: you could literally jam two steak knives in to the HV connector on an EV battery pack and lick them, and the only thing that would happen is that you'd cut your tongue. Every EV has very clear instructions and procedures for how to physically lock out the HV system for service. On many, it's a physical plug you pull. God, I wish HNers would not talk about subjects they know nothing about.

hangonhn 5y ago

Agreed. I work on my own cars but they're all ICE. Once the car is jacked up onto jack stands, I feel pretty safe working on my car because there is nothing moving nor live (except for the 12v, which I can disconnect). I don't know if that's the case for EVs.

onphonenow 5y ago
Yeah, Rossmann is kind of an idiot. An EV car has high / deadly energy in its high voltage side. If you are going to do hundreds of volts and hundreds of amps to get a heavy vehicle to 60mph in 3 seconds, you simply must have some pretty high potential energy ready to go. I'm kind of surprised they don't have warnings for folks like first responders as well - imagine cutting through a tesla - seems if you go through a HV cable you could just create a big problem.
- mulmen 5y ago
  It's a good question. I assume there's some amount of consistent design that allows safe assumptions on the part of emergency responders. Like not running fuel lines through doors and pillars. I have no idea if such a standard exists. Here's the first quack, looks like some fire departments actually do train on Teslas. Not sure if they also train on other models. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-jaws-of-life-first-responder-training/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-jaws-of-life-first-r...
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Cables aren't fuel lines. If you short a HV cable, the battery BMS WILL trip, and the battery will be disconnected. If it doesn't, it's gross negligence on the part of Tesla.
    - mulmen 5y ago
      Ok but there's still no reason to run HV cables through pillars, right? Like part of the design of the car is to be hacked open after an accident.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        Yup, agreed.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  If you cut through a HV cable while wearing basic protective equipment, you will trip the BMS and be fine. In the same way you have to disconnect a few things to make an ICE vehicle safe to use, you have to simply disconnect the battery, and it will be safe. This can be easily engineered. Louis Rossman isn't an idiot, he worked on EVs with voltages high enough to injure you (and so have I), and he's correct.
  - onphonenow 5y ago
    He is clearly an idiot if he can't open that front but claims he is technically skilled enough to work on HV. That doesn't work together. Either you are able to do some basic mechanical and thinking work (in which case you can easily open the front) or you can't figure it out - in which case you really should not be poking around in there. You literally just have to remove a plastic cover. If you can't figure that out there are many youtube videos showing you how to do this. If you are too dumb to figure that out, then you shouldn't be under there. Note that "you have to simply disconnect the battery" - is not as simple as you make it sound. I think they even pulled the window washer fluid out from under there. Anyways, the outrage over this is totally ridiculous and folks who can't figure out how to open this hood - yes, probably idiots. There is a new sort of thing - "learned helplessness" is maybe a good term? It's like critical thinking skills are disengaged. I'm reminded of small children who sort of flop around even when the thing they want is right there for them to grab. If folks would engage critical thinking skills a bit more I think a lot of these issues would diminish in terms of being barriers AND you might also understand why a company selling a luxury car to owners who in most cases do NONE of their own servicing might take this approach.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      He can figure out how to open it. That's not the issue. The issue is the car telling that you're not allowed to do it that's the issue. I can't think of a car telling me that I don't have the permission to repair it before. As far as disconnecting the battery, I agree that on many EVs it's needlessly complicated to know that the HV circuit is de-energized and to put it in that state. That's the fault of the manufacturer, and it shouldn't be acceptable.
- dreamcompiler 5y ago
  https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders
sudosysgen 5y ago
That is the case for EVs. You can disconnect the batteries and feel perfectly safe.
lamontcg 5y ago
> Once the car is jacked up onto jack stands, I feel pretty safe working on my car Lots of people have been killed because they didn't use jack stands or didn't use them right.

baybal2 5y ago

A lot of springs with preload force enough to fatally injure, not a problem?

floatingatoll 5y ago

For the unaware, an ICE car is an “internal combustion engine” car — one that’s fueled with gas. (Cross-boundary terminology issues with gas/electric combination engines are solved by calling those “hybrids”, as a shorthand for “dual-engine ICE & EV hybrid” which no one ever says but is technically correct.)

bserge 5y ago
laurensr 5y ago
As a non-native English speaker, I've always wondered why the term 'internal' is included in ICE. Is it because the combustion takes place in a chambers somewhere inside the engine?
- mulmen 5y ago
  Yes, combustion is internal. Compare this to an external combustion engine, like a steam engine, which uses an external heat source to boil water.
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    TIL, makes sense. Didn’t think of it as “combusts inside the engine” versus “combusts next to the engine”.
- Treblemaker 5y ago
  > Is it because the combustion takes place in a chambers somewhere inside the engine Yes, it is. Compare with "External Combustion Engine" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_combustion_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_combustion_engine

throwaway946513 5y ago

> an ICE car isn't anywhere close to as dangerous as an EV I fundamentally disagree with the premise that just because something is dangerous that the owner of said property is 'disallowed' from operating on it. I can own a house, and do all the electrical work myself. That's 120v AC for you North American households, or in rare situations 240v AC for certain appliances. I serviced an electric range just two months ago. If you understand how something works, what the requirements are to repair it, then you should understand the caution you must take when repairing those objects. I work on my own vehicle all the time. Yes, it is a gasoline powered vehicle. But the brakes on both an electric car and gas car must work. Something which is an easy repair and maintenance item is an object of which I know numerous drivers who would dare not touch, "because I don't want to break it". Which, is absolutely okay for those who would not want to work on it. But when someone who has the skills, knowledge, and abilities to work on a vehicle is told "no, you can't touch this brake because it requires a special RFID screwdriver to remove" That's the crux of the argument. If something so dangerous is refrained from the owner being enabled to even inspect or maintain/repair such an object, then it's likely that said consumer item is not for consumers, and shouldn't be sold.

user-the-name 5y ago
The power in your house is significantly less powerful than that in an electric car. There are also clear ways to disconnect the power when working on things in your house, which is not at all as clear in a battery-powered car. They are clearly more dangerous than home electrics. Also, nobody is "disallowing" anything. You can still open up this car. There is just no reason to.

KennyBlanken 5y ago

You mean like the ignition system which is over 20,000 volts? Moving parts that can chop off digits, deglove limbs, descalp, break limbs when clothing is caught and wrapped into them? Hydraulic hoses with enough pressure that a leak can cause injection injuries, which can be fatal? Pressurized coolant systems well over boiling that can severely burn a significant portion of the skin on your torso if opened, because many car companies use caps that completely release at a certain point, allowing them to blow off and gallons of coolant to come out? You won't find high voltage anywhere on an EV except in the battery pack until the vehicle is switched on and the drivetrain computer closes the high voltage contactor inside the battery pack. Ie: you could literally jam two steak knives in to the HV connector on an EV battery pack and lick them, and the only thing that would happen is that you'd cut your tongue. Every EV has very clear instructions and procedures for how to physically lock out the HV system for service. On many, it's a physical plug you pull. God, I wish HNers would not talk about subjects they know nothing about.