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After reading the complete article, I have no specific objection to this. It's the same as posting "no trespassing" on a power substation; it stops idle curiosi

After reading the complete article, I have no specific objection to this. It's the same as posting "no trespassing" on a power substation; it stops idle curiosity from getting someone killed, provides a sensible safety precaution for high-voltage equipment, and is trivial for any motivated person (such as mechanics and HN readers) to overcome with basic tools. My car's gas engine does not consist exclusively of deadly high-voltage equipment in it that can kill me dead when my car is powered off, so I think it's fine to apply different safety processes to consumer-targeted electric cars than we apply to consumer-targeted gasoline cars. I can't speak to why they chose not to provide a user-accessible storage area, but it certainly does simplify design and safety testing to not have a frunk that could pop open after a latch failure and obstruct the windshield. (I assume the trunk can still store a full set of golf clubs and an overnight duffel bag — it is a Mercedes, after all.)

josephcsible 5y ago
> My car's gas engine does not consist exclusively of deadly high-voltage equipment in it that can kill me dead when my car is powered off, so I think it's fine to apply different safety processes to consumer-targeted electric cars than we apply to consumer-targeted gasoline cars. You're making it sound like EVs are more dangerous than ICE vehicles, which they're not. Also, no other EV manufacturer has said or done anything like this.
tragictrash 5y ago
Personally I would have liked to see the reasoning presented in that safety message. Something like "high voltage is present under the hood" or "only qualified personnel have the tools to safely open the hood". Same applies for your no trespassing example. I would like to see "no trespassing, danger high voltage"
- vilhelm_s 5y ago
  Isn't that kindof what the list of warnings below the message provides? I think you can click on them to expand them, and based on what's in the owner's manual I expect one of the warnings is about "components under voltage".
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  This. Plenty of people think they're "smart" - and assume they know better than a vague warning sign: When some people see a "Danger confined space" sign they're going to think the danger is banging your head on the low-ceiling; that's not the real danger of confined spaces: a bigger threat is unbreathable gasses, like CO2, that tend to pool at the bottom of confined spaces: that's often the real danger. But yet I've never seen a sign saying "Danger: confined space: CO2 pooling risk" or similar.
  - Volker_W 5y ago
    This. But the problem aren't the people, but the vague warning sign. Another example is The problem is that many warning signs don't exist to warn people, but to prevent lawsuits. So they are phrased as generally as possible and often include false positives.
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    There’s no warning sign for CO2 risk that will work for a non-expert. You have to go for the basics (“risk of suffocation and death”) at that point, because no one knows that you can drown in CO2.
    - Volker_W 5y ago
      These ones would work for me: "CO2 pooling risk" "Gas pooling risk" "Risk of suffocation"
      - floatingatoll 5y ago
        “There’s no visible pool of water, must be fine”
    - tragictrash 5y ago
      I disagree. I think that most of the population of United States would understand that oxygen deprivation is bad. I agree that coming up with verbiage for a sign that clearly communicates the correct intent would be difficult.
- sly010 5y ago
  Definitely agree. My first thought was "but yes", after reading the article I am not so curious to peek under. Perhaps the marketing department doesn't like the idea of the car being "danger"-ous.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  I don't think there are really any major risks to human life from the high voltage under the hood of an EV. The electrical system checks for earth leakage faults all the time, and will switch off if it finds one. That means a baby can chew any of the big scary orange wires and still survive. The only real dangerous bit of an EV is the battery pack - if you cut it open.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    In your case it appears that Mercedes made the right decision. 400 V DC with for all practical purposes an internal resistance so low that it might as well be zero is about as nasty as it gets. Zero warning until you touch that live terminal and then no way to disconnect if you happened to grip it the wrong way, and when you short it out you're going to be in for a world of hurt. The earth leakage protection only applies to the charging circuitry primary. So, even if I don't agree with the principle it looks like for some users this actually applies, which I find somewhat surprising.
    - londons_explore 5y ago
      The earth leakage protection applies to the whole system. > no way to disconnect if you happened to grip it the wrong way This is what the explosive breakers are for. Here is an article with more details: https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/service-repair/battery-and-electrical/article/21186567/hybrid-and-electric-vehicle-high-voltage-isolation-fault-systems https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/service-repair/battery-an... Note that it appears there are a few hybrid cars made in the 90's without this protection!
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        This is only about chassis ground current, not earth leakage, which is strictly the domain of the charging circuitry. Seriously: if you do not understand the difference please do no not start messing with the HV side of an electric vehicle. Below 48 V is considered a safe voltage but can already - under the right conditions - cause you plenty of hardship and I'm aware of one death from a 48 V system. Anything higher than that with voltages between 200 and 600V pretty much the nastiest range because it is too low to arc and high enough to kill you needs special precautions, tools and ways of working to keep you safe. You can't rely on technical measures to keep you safe when diagnosing and repairing those circuits because those technical measures could be the cause of the fault.
tomatotomato37 5y ago
I feel in that case securing the hood with bolts in the grille or whatever would do a better job of discouraging random motorists from poking around there for a spare tire while still allowing the slightly mechanically inclined to open it and discover the EQS's "secret" of poor HVAC routing. Having the UI actively berate you about safety is both demeaning to the customer and toxic to repair culture as a whole.
- gruez 5y ago
  like other posters have mentioned, there's a legal/liability component too. bolts don't prevent lawsuits, warning labels/messages do.
  - KennyBlanken 5y ago
    There is no liability component to a car's engine compartment. For a hundred years car engine compartments have been dangerous as hell. Hazards in an ICE compartment: * temperatures hot enough to melt/set fire to your clothing (the exhaust, which in modern engines can be found in all sorts of weird places; Audi and others now use turbochargers inside the engine banks, instead of outside them. Exhaust gas recirc systems can be in weird places, too * moving components which could easily dismember digits, deglove your hands, descalp you. Lots of cars have stuff that isn't moving, which can unexpectedly start moving (like electric cooling fans.) * scalding hot fluids which could geyser if released (ie the coolant expansion tank) * battery acid, used engine oil, etc Hazards in an electric car engine compartment: none, if you don't cut through the insulation of the bright orange HV cables or drink the fluids.
    - lamontcg 5y ago
      "warning: do not wear shirt with tie while tensioning engine belts"
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > which can unexpectedly start moving (like electric cooling fans.) And where 'unexpectedly' includes: when the vehicle is stationary, and powered down, key removed from the ignition.
Ansil849 5y ago
> My car's gas engine does not consist exclusively of deadly high-voltage equipment in it that can kill me dead when my car is powered off, so I think it's fine to apply different safety processes to consumer-targeted electric cars than we apply to consumer-targeted gasoline cars. Your car's gas engine, no. Your car's gas tank, however, absolutely can.
- pkulak 5y ago
  I bet Mercedes also has the audacity to prohibit me from prodding the gas tanks of their combustion cars with a screwdriver.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    What happens when you prod a gas tank with a screwdriver?
    - pkulak 5y ago
      I'll never know. :(
      - pvaldes 5y ago
        The right answer
    - gregoryl 5y ago
      You might damage the screwdriver I guess.
    - fy20 5y ago
      Probably not much. Fuel tanks are usually made of plastic now, so you aren't likely to create a spark and ignite something. Petrol fuel in liquid form is hard to ignite, so if it leaks not much is going to happen other than giving your driveway a good clean (it's a solvent) - it's the gas form that is much more flammable. When petrol enters the engine combustion chamber it is mixed with air to form a flammable gas - there should be no liquid. Diesel fuel is much harder to ignite, heck, you could probably use diesel fuel in place of engine oil and it probably wouldn't ignite.
tyingq 5y ago
It's still weird to me, as it's not uncommon for things to happen that you might want to check on. Like squirrels or other animals getting in there and building nests. Or allowing an owner to check on an odd noise that could be coming from the area, etc. A hood prop being absent seems dumb.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Oh, your car can kill you or injure you in so many ways when it's turned off. You could accidentally disconnect something from the coolants system before it cooled down and get third degree burns. You could accidentally start the engine when working on the electric system and kill yourself. You could start a fire in about a dozen different ways and kill yourself or someone else. You can also accidentally leak battery fluid onto yourself or blow up the battery, and breathe in toxic gases. There are also a few dozen ways you could mess up a repair and die without warning while driving.
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  None of those are in the same “likelihood of death to a person who has common sense” risk category as the high-voltage Mercedes front compartment. See also the various other replies along these lines, such as: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29801119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29801119 Another way to look at this is, “are there any consumer-serviceable parts within the compartment?” and “are there instantly-fatal wires/terminals within the compartment?”. The pair of answers “no” and “yes” for the Mercedes demand a wholly different approach to risk management and safety design than a gas engine, whose pair of answers are “yes” and “no”. EV high-voltage are not consumer-serviceable, as a regular consumer cannot be expected to understand high-voltage safety practices. Yes, some consumers know how to service them, but the necessary safety practices that are generally commonly understood for gas engines are not commonly understood for electric engines, and are regulated differently as a result.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    "Consumer-serviceable parts" is such a stupid term. There are actually no parts that are "consumer serviceable", because a "consumer" is an abstract fiction that is only capable of continually buying new off-the-shelf junk. In reality, these devices are owned by people, most of them quite capable of replacing parts, especially when they're not being infantilized. The main thing that has changed between traditional cars and EVs are the times. The specific hazards are different and some amount of warning is justified, but plastering something with useless signs that just attempt to discourage without describing the actual hazards should create the same legal situation as having no warnings at all.
lowbloodsugar 5y ago
It's quite definitely not the same thing. I can't trespass on property I own. If I owned a substation, then it would be appropriate for it to warn "Danger! Risk of fatal electric shock!" but a "No trespassing" sign simply wouldn't apply to me and therefore provide no advice. As others have said here, it would be far safer to warn owners of these cars "Danger! Risk of fatal electric shock! No user serviceable parts! Service must be done by a qualified engineer." In fact without those warnings, I suspect that they would be legally liable, though IANAL, on the grounds that any reasonable person would know that "You must not open your own property" is not enforceable or reasonable, and when they do so, and die of electric shock, that is unexpected. "Risk of injury from moving parts" isn't going to put off anyone who has ever wrenched on a car, either.

josephcsible 5y ago

> My car's gas engine does not consist exclusively of deadly high-voltage equipment in it that can kill me dead when my car is powered off, so I think it's fine to apply different safety processes to consumer-targeted electric cars than we apply to consumer-targeted gasoline cars. You're making it sound like EVs are more dangerous than ICE vehicles, which they're not. Also, no other EV manufacturer has said or done anything like this.

tragictrash 5y ago

Personally I would have liked to see the reasoning presented in that safety message. Something like "high voltage is present under the hood" or "only qualified personnel have the tools to safely open the hood". Same applies for your no trespassing example. I would like to see "no trespassing, danger high voltage"

vilhelm_s 5y ago
Isn't that kindof what the list of warnings below the message provides? I think you can click on them to expand them, and based on what's in the owner's manual I expect one of the warnings is about "components under voltage".
DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
This. Plenty of people think they're "smart" - and assume they know better than a vague warning sign: When some people see a "Danger confined space" sign they're going to think the danger is banging your head on the low-ceiling; that's not the real danger of confined spaces: a bigger threat is unbreathable gasses, like CO2, that tend to pool at the bottom of confined spaces: that's often the real danger. But yet I've never seen a sign saying "Danger: confined space: CO2 pooling risk" or similar.
- Volker_W 5y ago
  This. But the problem aren't the people, but the vague warning sign. Another example is The problem is that many warning signs don't exist to warn people, but to prevent lawsuits. So they are phrased as generally as possible and often include false positives.
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  There’s no warning sign for CO2 risk that will work for a non-expert. You have to go for the basics (“risk of suffocation and death”) at that point, because no one knows that you can drown in CO2.
  - Volker_W 5y ago
    These ones would work for me: "CO2 pooling risk" "Gas pooling risk" "Risk of suffocation"
    - floatingatoll 5y ago
      “There’s no visible pool of water, must be fine”
  - tragictrash 5y ago
    I disagree. I think that most of the population of United States would understand that oxygen deprivation is bad. I agree that coming up with verbiage for a sign that clearly communicates the correct intent would be difficult.
sly010 5y ago
Definitely agree. My first thought was "but yes", after reading the article I am not so curious to peek under. Perhaps the marketing department doesn't like the idea of the car being "danger"-ous.
londons_explore 5y ago
I don't think there are really any major risks to human life from the high voltage under the hood of an EV. The electrical system checks for earth leakage faults all the time, and will switch off if it finds one. That means a baby can chew any of the big scary orange wires and still survive. The only real dangerous bit of an EV is the battery pack - if you cut it open.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  In your case it appears that Mercedes made the right decision. 400 V DC with for all practical purposes an internal resistance so low that it might as well be zero is about as nasty as it gets. Zero warning until you touch that live terminal and then no way to disconnect if you happened to grip it the wrong way, and when you short it out you're going to be in for a world of hurt. The earth leakage protection only applies to the charging circuitry primary. So, even if I don't agree with the principle it looks like for some users this actually applies, which I find somewhat surprising.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    The earth leakage protection applies to the whole system. > no way to disconnect if you happened to grip it the wrong way This is what the explosive breakers are for. Here is an article with more details: https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/service-repair/battery-and-electrical/article/21186567/hybrid-and-electric-vehicle-high-voltage-isolation-fault-systems https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/service-repair/battery-an... Note that it appears there are a few hybrid cars made in the 90's without this protection!
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      This is only about chassis ground current, not earth leakage, which is strictly the domain of the charging circuitry. Seriously: if you do not understand the difference please do no not start messing with the HV side of an electric vehicle. Below 48 V is considered a safe voltage but can already - under the right conditions - cause you plenty of hardship and I'm aware of one death from a 48 V system. Anything higher than that with voltages between 200 and 600V pretty much the nastiest range because it is too low to arc and high enough to kill you needs special precautions, tools and ways of working to keep you safe. You can't rely on technical measures to keep you safe when diagnosing and repairing those circuits because those technical measures could be the cause of the fault.

tomatotomato37 5y ago

I feel in that case securing the hood with bolts in the grille or whatever would do a better job of discouraging random motorists from poking around there for a spare tire while still allowing the slightly mechanically inclined to open it and discover the EQS's "secret" of poor HVAC routing. Having the UI actively berate you about safety is both demeaning to the customer and toxic to repair culture as a whole.

gruez 5y ago
like other posters have mentioned, there's a legal/liability component too. bolts don't prevent lawsuits, warning labels/messages do.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  There is no liability component to a car's engine compartment. For a hundred years car engine compartments have been dangerous as hell. Hazards in an ICE compartment: * temperatures hot enough to melt/set fire to your clothing (the exhaust, which in modern engines can be found in all sorts of weird places; Audi and others now use turbochargers inside the engine banks, instead of outside them. Exhaust gas recirc systems can be in weird places, too * moving components which could easily dismember digits, deglove your hands, descalp you. Lots of cars have stuff that isn't moving, which can unexpectedly start moving (like electric cooling fans.) * scalding hot fluids which could geyser if released (ie the coolant expansion tank) * battery acid, used engine oil, etc Hazards in an electric car engine compartment: none, if you don't cut through the insulation of the bright orange HV cables or drink the fluids.
  - lamontcg 5y ago
    "warning: do not wear shirt with tie while tensioning engine belts"
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > which can unexpectedly start moving (like electric cooling fans.) And where 'unexpectedly' includes: when the vehicle is stationary, and powered down, key removed from the ignition.

Ansil849 5y ago

> My car's gas engine does not consist exclusively of deadly high-voltage equipment in it that can kill me dead when my car is powered off, so I think it's fine to apply different safety processes to consumer-targeted electric cars than we apply to consumer-targeted gasoline cars. Your car's gas engine, no. Your car's gas tank, however, absolutely can.

pkulak 5y ago
I bet Mercedes also has the audacity to prohibit me from prodding the gas tanks of their combustion cars with a screwdriver.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  What happens when you prod a gas tank with a screwdriver?
  - pkulak 5y ago
    I'll never know. :(
    - pvaldes 5y ago
      The right answer
  - gregoryl 5y ago
    You might damage the screwdriver I guess.
  - fy20 5y ago
    Probably not much. Fuel tanks are usually made of plastic now, so you aren't likely to create a spark and ignite something. Petrol fuel in liquid form is hard to ignite, so if it leaks not much is going to happen other than giving your driveway a good clean (it's a solvent) - it's the gas form that is much more flammable. When petrol enters the engine combustion chamber it is mixed with air to form a flammable gas - there should be no liquid. Diesel fuel is much harder to ignite, heck, you could probably use diesel fuel in place of engine oil and it probably wouldn't ignite.

tyingq 5y ago

It's still weird to me, as it's not uncommon for things to happen that you might want to check on. Like squirrels or other animals getting in there and building nests. Or allowing an owner to check on an odd noise that could be coming from the area, etc. A hood prop being absent seems dumb.

sudosysgen 5y ago

Oh, your car can kill you or injure you in so many ways when it's turned off. You could accidentally disconnect something from the coolants system before it cooled down and get third degree burns. You could accidentally start the engine when working on the electric system and kill yourself. You could start a fire in about a dozen different ways and kill yourself or someone else. You can also accidentally leak battery fluid onto yourself or blow up the battery, and breathe in toxic gases. There are also a few dozen ways you could mess up a repair and die without warning while driving.

floatingatoll 5y ago
None of those are in the same “likelihood of death to a person who has common sense” risk category as the high-voltage Mercedes front compartment. See also the various other replies along these lines, such as: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29801119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29801119 Another way to look at this is, “are there any consumer-serviceable parts within the compartment?” and “are there instantly-fatal wires/terminals within the compartment?”. The pair of answers “no” and “yes” for the Mercedes demand a wholly different approach to risk management and safety design than a gas engine, whose pair of answers are “yes” and “no”. EV high-voltage are not consumer-serviceable, as a regular consumer cannot be expected to understand high-voltage safety practices. Yes, some consumers know how to service them, but the necessary safety practices that are generally commonly understood for gas engines are not commonly understood for electric engines, and are regulated differently as a result.
- mindslight 5y ago
  "Consumer-serviceable parts" is such a stupid term. There are actually no parts that are "consumer serviceable", because a "consumer" is an abstract fiction that is only capable of continually buying new off-the-shelf junk. In reality, these devices are owned by people, most of them quite capable of replacing parts, especially when they're not being infantilized. The main thing that has changed between traditional cars and EVs are the times. The specific hazards are different and some amount of warning is justified, but plastering something with useless signs that just attempt to discourage without describing the actual hazards should create the same legal situation as having no warnings at all.

lowbloodsugar 5y ago

It's quite definitely not the same thing. I can't trespass on property I own. If I owned a substation, then it would be appropriate for it to warn "Danger! Risk of fatal electric shock!" but a "No trespassing" sign simply wouldn't apply to me and therefore provide no advice. As others have said here, it would be far safer to warn owners of these cars "Danger! Risk of fatal electric shock! No user serviceable parts! Service must be done by a qualified engineer." In fact without those warnings, I suspect that they would be legally liable, though IANAL, on the grounds that any reasonable person would know that "You must not open your own property" is not enforceable or reasonable, and when they do so, and die of electric shock, that is unexpected. "Risk of injury from moving parts" isn't going to put off anyone who has ever wrenched on a car, either.