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Right, and furthermore I think we should welcome other metrics that measure people's abilities, not necessarily among the same axes than IQ tests. IQ is certai

by tux3 5y ago

Right, and furthermore I think we should welcome other metrics that measure people's abilities, not necessarily among the same axes than IQ tests. IQ is certainly not a perfect metric, but for all the criticisms of it, I haven't seen any reason that psychometrics should not aim to improve. Yet people don't seem to discuss IQ with the intent to improve the metric. Accepting and rejecting it are not the only two options, we could also discuss ways to do better.

psyc 5y ago
Seems to me that people have become allergic to anything that seems elitist or undemocratic. The only acceptable opinion is that anyone with a minimum of privilege and hard work can do anything. I was just talking about this with my therapist, and she noted that people don't seem to have the same problem with admitting top athletes have a genetic advantage.
- thereisnospork 5y ago
  It has always vexed me how people recognize both the genetically athletically gifted and the intellectually 'disadvantaged'[0] but stumble over the concept of intellectually gifted individuals. [0]E.g. those afflicted with autism spectrum disorders, or dyslexia for two trivial examples.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Is that necessarily true? I think it's common to speak highly of talented individuals as being blessed with "raw intelligence" and the like. The more unseemly thing is to characterize entire groups of individuals with that.
    - thereisnospork 5y ago
      >Is that necessarily true? I think it's common to speak highly of talented individuals as being blessed with "raw intelligence" and the like. In some circles, but in others there is a lot of push that 'it's hard work' or 'privilege' that makes some students test better. Along with lots of excuses like '<Student> doesn't test well' instead of 'maybe <student> just isn't that smart'. Recent pushes by groups in CA (and elsewhere) to remove advanced math tracks and remove SAT requirements for college are examples I'd consider emblematic. See also the amount of consternation and hand-wringing over IQ[0] as a metric in other sub-threads. >The more unseemly thing is to characterize entire groups of individuals with that. Most definitely agree: imo a lot of harm has been done to rational discourse by persons trying to justify and enforce their pet views of ethnic superiority. [0]Hardly the be-all and end-all of intelligence, but people don't seem to have nearly the same hang-ups when discussing e.g. athlete's 40-yard dash times and the implications thereof for their performance in a higher dimensional environment like a football game.

by tux3 5y ago

psyc 5y ago

Seems to me that people have become allergic to anything that seems elitist or undemocratic. The only acceptable opinion is that anyone with a minimum of privilege and hard work can do anything. I was just talking about this with my therapist, and she noted that people don't seem to have the same problem with admitting top athletes have a genetic advantage.

thereisnospork 5y ago
It has always vexed me how people recognize both the genetically athletically gifted and the intellectually 'disadvantaged'[0] but stumble over the concept of intellectually gifted individuals. [0]E.g. those afflicted with autism spectrum disorders, or dyslexia for two trivial examples.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Is that necessarily true? I think it's common to speak highly of talented individuals as being blessed with "raw intelligence" and the like. The more unseemly thing is to characterize entire groups of individuals with that.
  - thereisnospork 5y ago
    >Is that necessarily true? I think it's common to speak highly of talented individuals as being blessed with "raw intelligence" and the like. In some circles, but in others there is a lot of push that 'it's hard work' or 'privilege' that makes some students test better. Along with lots of excuses like '<Student> doesn't test well' instead of 'maybe <student> just isn't that smart'. Recent pushes by groups in CA (and elsewhere) to remove advanced math tracks and remove SAT requirements for college are examples I'd consider emblematic. See also the amount of consternation and hand-wringing over IQ[0] as a metric in other sub-threads. >The more unseemly thing is to characterize entire groups of individuals with that. Most definitely agree: imo a lot of harm has been done to rational discourse by persons trying to justify and enforce their pet views of ethnic superiority. [0]Hardly the be-all and end-all of intelligence, but people don't seem to have nearly the same hang-ups when discussing e.g. athlete's 40-yard dash times and the implications thereof for their performance in a higher dimensional environment like a football game.