5 ms·

People making your argument always mention TVs, they never mention rent, land, food, education, childcare, or healthcare. 1. Rent 2. Land 3. Food 4. Educati

People making your argument always mention TVs, they never mention rent, land, food, education, childcare, or healthcare. 1. Rent 2. Land 3. Food 4. Education 5. Childcare 6. Healthcare You know, the stuff that actually matters. I'll give up my $400 LCD TV to be able to afford having my spouse stay home. No problem. I'll give up my Hyundai to be able to get a degree on the cheap like they did back in the 60s. I'll give up 100% of my silicon-based technology if in exchange I can afford to own some land. Easy choice. If I have to become a silicone-smashing luddite to return to 1960s level wealth, fine. I don't love computers THAT much.

Vivtek 15y ago
I'll give up 100% of my silicon-based technology if in exchange I can afford to own some land. Easy choice. You can't possibly be serious. Why aren't you already in Nebraska, then? There's plenty of land in the United States, most of it dirt cheap (being dirt). If you're not already from the country, you probably don't know why we all left the country. (Myself included.)
- forensic 15y ago
  I'm not talking about any crappy dirt pile anywhere, I'm talking about owning my own place to live in a community where there are jobs and 1960s technology. I could move to Nebraska but it is unlikely I could find a job that would afford me a residence. This isn't about social norms, this is about whether the computer revolution has been worth it for the great majority of Americans. A lot of Americans would kill right now for a job in steel or coal. And in 1960s America you didn't even need a high school diploma to own a house.
  - Vivtek 15y ago
    No, I'm pointing out that just owning land isn't enough. If you want to idealize the 1960's, no skin off my nose, although you're probably white and male. And you weren't alive in the 60's. The only reason to put "owning land" on a pedestal is because you can grow food on it. There's no other reason to care about land ownership. But you don't want to be a caveman and actually grub in the dirt - no, you want to be an industrial worker, apparently. One without silicon technology - just steel and coal. Because that world was just fantastic. Aspie computer nerd my ass. Punk.
    - ImprovedSilence 15y ago
      I want land. I want to build my domain. I want to be master of my kingdom. I want to landscape it how I want. I want to pick which trees grow and which get cut. I want to slowly aquire/make the appliances I want. I want to build storage to house my wares. I want to have a machine shop. Honestly, for me, owning land gives me just another creative outlet. It's one more thing to 'Hack'. Do I line the driveway with sugar maples or cypress tress? Do I build a deck with a pergola, or screened in porch. And don't take this the wrong way, I mean actually build with my own hands. Dig holes with my own spades. mix my own mortar and lay my own foundation. A lot of the desire to own land stems from the (perhaps instinctual?) urge to build a HOME, not just a place to stay.
      - Vivtek 15y ago
        Well, OK, granted - I own my own home for exactly these reasons as well. But I bought my foreclosed home - bricks and mortar and 14 rooms and a carriage house - for $8000, in Richmond, Indiana, two years ago. I make my own freaking job online, which anybody here ought to be able to do. The only reason to complain about the high cost of home ownership is if you think you must, must, must live right next to everybody else. Well, you can't. Not until you've gotten rich. But the rest of the planet is right here waiting for you to make it your own, and anybody who hangs out on this site should be more than capable of doing good deeds without hand-holding by all the cool kids. In fact, if you want bricks and mortar in your cheap, cheap house, I heartily encourage you to adopt one of our antiques here in Richmond, Indiana. I'll help you pick one out and I'll even teach you how to mix mortar.
        forensic 15y ago
        No one is worried about well educated, literate, healthy, young software engineers. And no one should be. I don't post here about poverty for my own sake. Anyone here can handle themself. I'm posting for all the people who are in trouble right now and facing homelessness because software engineers made their job obsolete and they have no money to re-educate, no job, and no government help. It's not right to just say these people deserve what they get and should find their own way out or die or become homeless. Our society is wealthy enough that no one should ever be without the basics. Anyone who can afford $8000 is not in trouble. A huge portion of the population today cannot. (Also, most people don't have the tremendous unprecedented luxury of being able to make money online.)
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
  - Todd 15y ago
    You're in luck. Nebraska has the second lowest rate of unemployment in the US. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm
  - randomdata 15y ago
    If you honestly want to live in the 60s, you can pick up 1960s era farm equipment for the price of a song. The job is right there on your land. Commodity prices are strong right now and with no real machinery capital outlay, you'll have no trouble making a living as a farmer.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- forensic 15y ago
  The word "land" is a colloquialism for "owning your own residence" Leave it to Hacker News to be overly literal. Most people know what I mean. This isn't a legal document. The price of land drives the cost of housing.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
learc83 15y ago
Repost of something I wrote the other day that I think is relevant: My very average house today is a huge luxury compared to the very average house my grandparents bought in the 60s. I have a cable bill, an iPhone bill, an internet bill, a netflix bill, and too many various SaaS subscriptions. My grandparents had none of those. I also have a much higher power bill to pay for all my consumer electronics and air conditioning, a higher health insurance bill to pay for drastically better health care, an extra car insurance policy. That's in addition to all the extra stuff I have lying around. 2 cars, not one, both of which are vastly superior and more expensive than what my grandparents had. Superior home appliances. And 1 metric tonne of electronics. I have so much more material wealth than all but the very richest did just 50 years ago. How could I complain that I'm not better off?
- forensic 15y ago
  You ARE better off. But you are also in the top 20%. The bottom 80% are not as lucky as you. The bottom 80% cannot afford 2 cars, or a house, or cable, or an iPhone, etc. Have some fucking perspective. You are doing well; but look around you. The rest of the country is NOT. A tremendous part of the economy is out of work and cannot even afford to go to the doctor. You're living in a bubble.
  - learc83 15y ago
    I'm firmly in the middle in terms of household income. I was comparing myself to the middle income earner from 2 generations ago. My point is that the vast majority of Americans have more material wealth than their equivalents did 50 years ago. Everyone has more., Also Cable penetration is close to 60% in America, so at least half of the bottom 80% can afford it.
    - william42 15y ago
      Cable penetration should also be added to satellite penetration, since both serve (almost) the same purpose.
- illumin8 15y ago
csomar 15y ago
There are lots of third-world countries that will offer you what you want, but you'll give up (exactly) the LCD TV, your car, and the technology. If you are good in English, you can teach it in some third-world country, while making some money in the side with the Internet. That will afford what you want.
usaar333 15y ago
The items you mention have not increased in price due to trade. 1/2. Rent/land: Remain cheap in the midwest. Very nice 3 bedroom houses in suburban Texas can be had for $125,000; you can easily buy one on a software dev's salary (in other words, 1950s style where the husband as only worker). Insist on living on the West Coast? Well, you can blame the obscene housing prices on a combination of population increase and zoning laws. 3 food. Ok, we're looking at maybe 50% increase over raw inflation from the 1950s. Aside from this being a small increase, most of this increase can be attributed to additional food safety and even more importantly surging price in oil due to larger world population. 4. Education: Sure, it's surged, but again this is due to lower taxes and more social programs, not trade. Besides, education ($60k tuition for 4 years in public school) isn't that bad compared to the the savings on cars alone over a lifetime. 5. Has this gone up? Assuming your spouse was working in the 1960s that is. 6. In all fairness, life expectancy is significantly higher now than 50 years ago.

Vivtek 15y ago

I'll give up 100% of my silicon-based technology if in exchange I can afford to own some land. Easy choice. You can't possibly be serious. Why aren't you already in Nebraska, then? There's plenty of land in the United States, most of it dirt cheap (being dirt). If you're not already from the country, you probably don't know why we all left the country. (Myself included.)

forensic 15y ago
I'm not talking about any crappy dirt pile anywhere, I'm talking about owning my own place to live in a community where there are jobs and 1960s technology. I could move to Nebraska but it is unlikely I could find a job that would afford me a residence. This isn't about social norms, this is about whether the computer revolution has been worth it for the great majority of Americans. A lot of Americans would kill right now for a job in steel or coal. And in 1960s America you didn't even need a high school diploma to own a house.
- Vivtek 15y ago
  No, I'm pointing out that just owning land isn't enough. If you want to idealize the 1960's, no skin off my nose, although you're probably white and male. And you weren't alive in the 60's. The only reason to put "owning land" on a pedestal is because you can grow food on it. There's no other reason to care about land ownership. But you don't want to be a caveman and actually grub in the dirt - no, you want to be an industrial worker, apparently. One without silicon technology - just steel and coal. Because that world was just fantastic. Aspie computer nerd my ass. Punk.
  - ImprovedSilence 15y ago
    I want land. I want to build my domain. I want to be master of my kingdom. I want to landscape it how I want. I want to pick which trees grow and which get cut. I want to slowly aquire/make the appliances I want. I want to build storage to house my wares. I want to have a machine shop. Honestly, for me, owning land gives me just another creative outlet. It's one more thing to 'Hack'. Do I line the driveway with sugar maples or cypress tress? Do I build a deck with a pergola, or screened in porch. And don't take this the wrong way, I mean actually build with my own hands. Dig holes with my own spades. mix my own mortar and lay my own foundation. A lot of the desire to own land stems from the (perhaps instinctual?) urge to build a HOME, not just a place to stay.
    - Vivtek 15y ago
      Well, OK, granted - I own my own home for exactly these reasons as well. But I bought my foreclosed home - bricks and mortar and 14 rooms and a carriage house - for $8000, in Richmond, Indiana, two years ago. I make my own freaking job online, which anybody here ought to be able to do. The only reason to complain about the high cost of home ownership is if you think you must, must, must live right next to everybody else. Well, you can't. Not until you've gotten rich. But the rest of the planet is right here waiting for you to make it your own, and anybody who hangs out on this site should be more than capable of doing good deeds without hand-holding by all the cool kids. In fact, if you want bricks and mortar in your cheap, cheap house, I heartily encourage you to adopt one of our antiques here in Richmond, Indiana. I'll help you pick one out and I'll even teach you how to mix mortar.
      - forensic 15y ago
        No one is worried about well educated, literate, healthy, young software engineers. And no one should be. I don't post here about poverty for my own sake. Anyone here can handle themself. I'm posting for all the people who are in trouble right now and facing homelessness because software engineers made their job obsolete and they have no money to re-educate, no job, and no government help. It's not right to just say these people deserve what they get and should find their own way out or die or become homeless. Our society is wealthy enough that no one should ever be without the basics. Anyone who can afford $8000 is not in trouble. A huge portion of the population today cannot. (Also, most people don't have the tremendous unprecedented luxury of being able to make money online.)
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- Todd 15y ago
  You're in luck. Nebraska has the second lowest rate of unemployment in the US. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm
- randomdata 15y ago
  If you honestly want to live in the 60s, you can pick up 1960s era farm equipment for the price of a song. The job is right there on your land. Commodity prices are strong right now and with no real machinery capital outlay, you'll have no trouble making a living as a farmer.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

forensic 15y ago
The word "land" is a colloquialism for "owning your own residence" Leave it to Hacker News to be overly literal. Most people know what I mean. This isn't a legal document. The price of land drives the cost of housing.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

learc83 15y ago

Repost of something I wrote the other day that I think is relevant: My very average house today is a huge luxury compared to the very average house my grandparents bought in the 60s. I have a cable bill, an iPhone bill, an internet bill, a netflix bill, and too many various SaaS subscriptions. My grandparents had none of those. I also have a much higher power bill to pay for all my consumer electronics and air conditioning, a higher health insurance bill to pay for drastically better health care, an extra car insurance policy. That's in addition to all the extra stuff I have lying around. 2 cars, not one, both of which are vastly superior and more expensive than what my grandparents had. Superior home appliances. And 1 metric tonne of electronics. I have so much more material wealth than all but the very richest did just 50 years ago. How could I complain that I'm not better off?

forensic 15y ago
You ARE better off. But you are also in the top 20%. The bottom 80% are not as lucky as you. The bottom 80% cannot afford 2 cars, or a house, or cable, or an iPhone, etc. Have some fucking perspective. You are doing well; but look around you. The rest of the country is NOT. A tremendous part of the economy is out of work and cannot even afford to go to the doctor. You're living in a bubble.
- learc83 15y ago
  I'm firmly in the middle in terms of household income. I was comparing myself to the middle income earner from 2 generations ago. My point is that the vast majority of Americans have more material wealth than their equivalents did 50 years ago. Everyone has more., Also Cable penetration is close to 60% in America, so at least half of the bottom 80% can afford it.
  - william42 15y ago
    Cable penetration should also be added to satellite penetration, since both serve (almost) the same purpose.
illumin8 15y ago

csomar 15y ago

There are lots of third-world countries that will offer you what you want, but you'll give up (exactly) the LCD TV, your car, and the technology. If you are good in English, you can teach it in some third-world country, while making some money in the side with the Internet. That will afford what you want.

usaar333 15y ago

The items you mention have not increased in price due to trade. 1/2. Rent/land: Remain cheap in the midwest. Very nice 3 bedroom houses in suburban Texas can be had for $125,000; you can easily buy one on a software dev's salary (in other words, 1950s style where the husband as only worker). Insist on living on the West Coast? Well, you can blame the obscene housing prices on a combination of population increase and zoning laws. 3 food. Ok, we're looking at maybe 50% increase over raw inflation from the 1950s. Aside from this being a small increase, most of this increase can be attributed to additional food safety and even more importantly surging price in oil due to larger world population. 4. Education: Sure, it's surged, but again this is due to lower taxes and more social programs, not trade. Besides, education ($60k tuition for 4 years in public school) isn't that bad compared to the the savings on cars alone over a lifetime. 5. Has this gone up? Assuming your spouse was working in the 1960s that is. 6. In all fairness, life expectancy is significantly higher now than 50 years ago.