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How do I open the Mercedes EQS’s hood?

81 points by danboarder 5y ago

danboarder 5y ago
Warning from the dash Console: "Only the specialist personnel of a qualified specialist workshop should open the hood. Access by the customer is not permitted.”
- littlecranky67 5y ago
  Since when do I need permission from the manufacturer to do with my property as I see fit? Legally, we (in Germany) already have the case that opening up a device not necessarily voids the warranty, so I wonder why they go with that.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    That is the law in the US too. It's likely just a matter of persuasive messaging. They might not be able to void your warranty, but they might be able to lead you into thinking they can.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      > they might be able to lead you into thinking they can. I can't help wondering if there is or should be some sort of law against corporations doing this. If they are trying to mislead you into not making use of a right which is legally yours, that feels a bit like fraud, or practising law without a licence. I'm reluctant to suggest that the government should limit even corporate free speech so much that companies become afraid to put warnings on things, and corporate lawyers would probably just come up with even more convoluted ways of phrasing things to technically comply with the law (or maliciously comply with it to make people hate the law), but perhaps some well-funded consumer body should be able to name and shame companies that do this.
      - littlecranky67 5y ago
        Splitting hairs here, but Mercedes would argue that it is meant to signal to leasing/rental cars that the user is not allowed to open (based on the rental agreement) so in those cases at least, it is not complete missleading.
      - kube-system 5y ago
        The FTC in the US has gone after companies that literally tell their customers that something invalidates their warranty, when under law, it wouldn't. But I feel like "you are not permitted" is an entirely different thing. It is so vague that it doesn't really have a clear meaning, and it leaves the reader to fill in the blanks.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Ever since the "you need to lock out tag out a circuit to change a cosmetic cover plate in your own home and you're just asking to be killed if you don't wear arc flash gear while doing it" crowd grew up and became PMs capable of "adding value" to design decisions that didn't really need any thought given to them in the first place. This kind of crap is just a reflection of the affects of modern culture that prizes risk aversion after you filter it though a massive corporate bureaucracy (like Mercedes)
h2odragon 5y ago
> "there’s no gas struts or prop, so something has to be jammed in there to prop the hood up.” I bet if you bitch at the dealer hard enough they'll include a bit of 2x4 when you buy the car. They're going for the cellphone model of ownership. Pay large for the thing, pay monthly to keep it working, and when it breaks: fuck you, buy another. I know some folks still puttering along with their 80s Mercedes diesels pushing for or past the million mile mark. Don't think that kind of thing will happen again, not from this company anyway.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  >> They're going for the cellphone model of ownership. Pay large for the thing, Except this isn't the cell phone model. That would be "zero down; only $xxx per month on a two year contract, then get a new one." Being a car it can probably go 5 years. >> I bet if you bitch at the dealer hard enough they'll include a bit of 2x4 when you buy the car. Where will you store it though?
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    > Being a car it can probably go 5 years. That's a pathetic lifespan for such a large capital investment.
  - decafninja 5y ago
    That's almost exactly the model it will be for most people getting cars like this - AKA leasing. Pay zero down*. $XXXX (certainly 4 digits for a car like this) per month for 36-39 months. Return it and lease another one. I suspect most luxury cars (and many non-luxury ones too) these days are leased like this, at least in the US. *or at most, taxes & fees, if even that.
  - chris_st 5y ago
    > "zero down; only $xxx per month on a two year contract, then get a new one." Volvo did exactly this for one of their small SUVs (an inch or so shorter than my Prius, but a couple inches taller, about the same width). It was $600 a month, which included insurance (!) and at least maintenance. Don't know what happened with that experiment. I believe you had to commit to at least one year.
twobitshifter 5y ago
Ok, so maybe there is dangerous sparky stuff that can be reached in there - but it just shows poor design that they weren’t able to incorporate a frunk and/or isolate/insulate those components to not make opening the hood deathly dangerous.
- 0_____0 5y ago
  It doesn't really look like there's any exposed HV. I'm curious why they bothered to cover up the hood latch at all. I think there's a certain tradition wherein blokes will stand around a car with the hood open and poke at it, perhaps they're trying to discourage that.
- serf 5y ago
  I mean.. I guess? Every other manufacturer in the world has hot pipes & spinning fans & hand-grabbing belts under the hood with little done to prevent personal injury and it has worked fine for decades. The EV market just wants everything to 'trend Tesla', so they expect a 'frunk' and for everything to be totally unlike any other ICE car on the road.
  - ajross 5y ago
    That's not right, the frunk is a very natural feature given the design constraints. You need at least some space in front of the console, because the wheel wells need to be forward of the cockpit so the front seat occupants have a place to put their feet. Traditionally you put the engine there, because it was an obvious empty spot. Cars that didn't generally made significant tradeoffs (like two seats) to accomodate a different engine placement. But if you've got no engine, what can go there? Not the battery, that works much (much) better as a flat planar thing at the very bottom of the frame. You can put the motor there, sure, but an electric motor is tiny. Add in the random electronics and wiper fluid and whatnot and you still have a ton of space. So you make it cargo. It works great. EVs that don't have a frunk (the ID.4, ahem) end up feeling like they're missing a feature.
    - kfor 5y ago
awinter-py 5y ago
> “It’s an all electric car, nothing under the hood is user serviceable without special equipment to place the high voltage system into servicing mode.” 'no user serviceable parts within' from rainbows end
spoonjim 5y ago
If I can’t service the vehicle then don’t try to sell it to me, just lease it to me. I’d happily lease a non-serviceable vehicle as long as it had an all inclusive service contract for the lease duration.
- decafninja 5y ago
  I suspect most luxury cars already get leased (at least in the US) more than bought.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    After the first owner is done leasing them <insert middle men here> they get sold on used car lots.
    - decafninja 5y ago
      Yup, at which point it is no longer the manufacturer's problem other than reputationally (i.e. if the car is extremely prone to problems after the initial 3 year lease/warranty period). I am of the opinion that the majority of modern cars produced today - especially as you go higher up the price/luxury spectrum - are disposable appliances designed for obsolescence. The base mechanical bits might continue to function fine, but all the fancy technology won't be so fancy after 5 years, and certainly not 10 years. I think Teslas actually let you upgrade the CPU on the infotainment system (correct me if wrong)? Plus wider spread and use of CarPlay/Android Auto bakes in a little bit of future-proofing.
      - kristjansson 5y ago
        An undesirable infotainment system doesn't make a car disposable though. As long as the intra-car systems function for the design life of the components, an uncompetitive infotainment just reduces the potential resale value. Component failures are definitely a concern though, and incidental or intentional software failures via OTA, since either may be unrecoverable.
      - 5y ago
0_____0 5y ago
Y'all are on Hacker News, I think you can figure out how to remove a plastic cover over the hood latch if you really want to stare at some electronics housings. This is a lot more innocuous than the new habit carmakers have developed of charging subscriptions for basic vehicle functionality.
- Thorncorona 5y ago
  It's the precedent that is set.
  - sho_hn 5y ago
    This isn't actually all that new: Quite a few of luxury automobiles have had non-serviceable engine compartments for many years. It's not uncommon particularly with high-end sports cars, where engine covers may only be removed by licensed technicians. Those tend to be held by special screws requiring non-standard tools or similar. Ironically it's often the engines one might want to marvel at the most.
    - malwrar 5y ago
      And it’s why I won’t buy a Ferrari. Half joking, of course, but seriously I think this sort of design choice just reinforces the idea that the manufacturer, not the buyer, owns the product. Locking the hood closed, the symbolic innards of your car, isnt the only way to build a car safely. I fear moves like this will just further alienate people from the tech they rely on.
      - sho_hn 5y ago
        I know exactly what you mean: I'm fond of pointing out that I probably wouldn't be a software engineer today if the computers I grew up with had been as locked down as an iPhone. It only sort-of works in a world that today also features a Raspberry Pi, but is not sustainable on its own. In my brain I refer to this as "educational sustainability" somehow (then again, isn't all education motivated by sustainability of civilization and culture?), but I'm sure smarter folks have discussed and given this a better label. That said, luxury sports cars are an oddball market with non-obvious concerns and economics. A lot of the limited production run cars these restrictions apply to are essentially too valuable to actually drive. They're collectors' items, or acquired as speculative goods that will increase in value. It may be that making them more "tamper-proof" is in a strange way in the interest of the buyers.
joshu 5y ago
So I got to spend a few days with a not-quite-production EQS over the summer. It's pretty obvious from the design language that it's not really a hood at all. For example, it extends all the way down to the wheels - the front side fender does not connect to the body panel in front of the doors, for example.
user982 5y ago
The crazy man smiled at her. "My shop project, Louise. I've had enough of 'no user-serviceable parts within.' Let's take a look." He leaned over the car's front hood and ran his finger down the printed words forbidding customer maintenance ... Gu sighted along the edge of the tray, then glanced to his right, at the Radner brothers. "You really don't want to be standing there." — Rainbows End
floatingatoll 5y ago
After reading the complete article, I have no specific objection to this. It's the same as posting "no trespassing" on a power substation; it stops idle curiosity from getting someone killed, provides a sensible safety precaution for high-voltage equipment, and is trivial for any motivated person (such as mechanics and HN readers) to overcome with basic tools. My car's gas engine does not consist exclusively of deadly high-voltage equipment in it that can kill me dead when my car is powered off, so I think it's fine to apply different safety processes to consumer-targeted electric cars than we apply to consumer-targeted gasoline cars. I can't speak to why they chose not to provide a user-accessible storage area, but it certainly does simplify design and safety testing to not have a frunk that could pop open after a latch failure and obstruct the windshield. (I assume the trunk can still store a full set of golf clubs and an overnight duffel bag — it is a Mercedes, after all.)
- josephcsible 5y ago
  > My car's gas engine does not consist exclusively of deadly high-voltage equipment in it that can kill me dead when my car is powered off, so I think it's fine to apply different safety processes to consumer-targeted electric cars than we apply to consumer-targeted gasoline cars. You're making it sound like EVs are more dangerous than ICE vehicles, which they're not. Also, no other EV manufacturer has said or done anything like this.
- tragictrash 5y ago
  Personally I would have liked to see the reasoning presented in that safety message. Something like "high voltage is present under the hood" or "only qualified personnel have the tools to safely open the hood". Same applies for your no trespassing example. I would like to see "no trespassing, danger high voltage"
  - vilhelm_s 5y ago
    Isn't that kindof what the list of warnings below the message provides? I think you can click on them to expand them, and based on what's in the owner's manual I expect one of the warnings is about "components under voltage".
perryizgr8 5y ago
I don't buy the "it's too dangerous because of high voltage" argument. Ice cars have literally a bomb chamber within along with an assortment of fans and belts and hot liquids that will burn and maim you if you don't know what you're doing. But regular users have survived for a century with cars.
- FartyMcFarter 5y ago
  You can feel burning stuff from a distance using your regular caveman-era human hardware. Not necessarily high voltage electricity.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Still nowhere near as dangerous as high voltage, especially given that an ICE has a very clear "engine is now on and angry" state, which doesn't exist in the same way for an electric car.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  It would be quite hard to kill yourself with an internal combustion engine. I mean... it's probably possible (somehow spray yourself with petrol, and then ignite it?) but it wouldn't be at all likely. The same can't really be said of electric car guts.
- onphonenow 5y ago
  Most service techs turn off the car (ICE) before working on it. So it's usually very clear if your hand can be caught by a fan belt or not (and not deadly if it is). When turned off and 12v battery disconnected, a car is pretty darn safe. Are you sure you can sense high voltage / high amperage as well?
  - lowbloodsugar 5y ago
    Great story from my mechanic about how that one time they started a diesel and couldn't get it to stop. They even tried throwing rags into the intake. Then there was that time I had a rusty gas tank that we discovered when it leaked gasoline all over the shop till we got a drum under it. Or that time my car fell of its jacks (don't ask) and nearly broke both my legs.
kube-system 5y ago
Where is washer fluid filled from?
- devrand 5y ago
  There's an exterior door for it on the front fender.
  - sho_hn 5y ago
    Check here: https://www.motor1.com/news/501268/mercedes-eqs-windshield-washer-fender/ https://www.motor1.com/news/501268/mercedes-eqs-windshield-w...
- imilk 5y ago
  Its an innovative process where you deposit money from your bank account to a Mercedes dealership, and then a certified washer fluid technician ensures that premium washer fluid is calibrated to optimal levels.
  - stcredzero 5y ago
    How is that innovative, when Mercedes has been trending this way since the 1990's?
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    You’d think they could do it with an over the air update by now.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    >optimal levels Ah, yes, calibrated. Let's say you are having it filled where the weather never gets below freezing, and driving to somewhere it does...
hirundo 5y ago
Louis Rossmann just weighed in on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVqUuzUWEY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVqUuzUWEY He says the "not permitted" is evidence of our receding risk tolerance. I agree. Warn me of the chance of sudden painful death, sure, and thanks. But to forbid me, presumably an adult, is a different thing. I prefer to own my own property.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  That's nonsense, though, and assumes that the dangers posed by an electric car are roughly the same as by an ICE car. 400 or 800 volts is no joke, and nothing that you find under the hood of an ICE car is anywhere even close to being as dangerous as that.
  - hangonhn 5y ago
    Agreed. I work on my own cars but they're all ICE. Once the car is jacked up onto jack stands, I feel pretty safe working on my car because there is nothing moving nor live (except for the 12v, which I can disconnect). I don't know if that's the case for EVs.
    - onphonenow 5y ago
      Yeah, Rossmann is kind of an idiot. An EV car has high / deadly energy in its high voltage side. If you are going to do hundreds of volts and hundreds of amps to get a heavy vehicle to 60mph in 3 seconds, you simply must have some pretty high potential energy ready to go. I'm kind of surprised they don't have warnings for folks like first responders as well - imagine cutting through a tesla - seems if you go through a HV cable you could just create a big problem.
      - mulmen 5y ago
        It's a good question. I assume there's some amount of consistent design that allows safe assumptions on the part of emergency responders. Like not running fuel lines through doors and pillars. I have no idea if such a standard exists. Here's the first quack, looks like some fire departments actually do train on Teslas. Not sure if they also train on other models. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-jaws-of-life-first-responder-training/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-jaws-of-life-first-r...
avalys 5y ago
So, it seems like the answer here is, you open the hood exactly the same as you open the hood of any other vehicle, but with a plastic cover over the latch and some extra stickers and warnings?
weswilson 5y ago
The BMW i8 is just as complicated as the EQS, if not more. It requires two people to open the hood without damaging it. Here's some technician training on opening it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxe_b2GRwok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxe_b2GRwok It's not only electric cars, the new Porsche 911 GT3 won't let you access the engine either. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfu07Eq6pSc&t=632s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfu07Eq6pSc&t=632s
- tschwimmer 5y ago
  Wow, this was quite something. The fact that the emergency door latches are on the inside only raises many questions, as does the fact that the hood is so unwieldy. It's confusing to me that the hood was designed to be opened by 2 people and also that during "normal" operation it can easily damage the bumper. I realize they don't want people doing it themselves, but even for the mechanic this seems extremely annoying. Serviceability is clearly not a top value for these cars but it seems like it's not even considered at all.
boznz 5y ago
I dont have any issues with this. Modern petrol and diesel engines should be serviced every 100-300 hours depending upon how they are driven but Brushless Electric motors have no such requirement and can run for many thousands of hours, the failure point on most electric motors are the controllers and bearings if in inhospitable environments. A well designed EV coolant systems can work without servicing for the life of a vehicle
voldacar 5y ago
A little off topic but I have to say that the design of this car is very disappointing. It looks like a formless bar of soap. If I glanced at it on the road I'd think it was a Toyota or something
chris_st 5y ago
Point of comparison -- I can open the hood of my Prius, and would need for various fluids, but everything else is covered by a plastic cover that warns of the high voltage bits underneath.
markvdb 5y ago
I see this, and it makes me think of an idea that has spooked my mind again and again... Please allow me to for for one moment ignore all shortcomings of the USSR and its products. I do realise that for some of you, this must be quite a stretch. USSR products often breathed a design language much closer to modularity, maintainability and repairability. I would love to see an affordable, simple, modular, maintainable, repairable electric car. One can dream...
- coolspot 5y ago
  > USSR products often breathed a design language much closer to modularity, maintainability and repairability. I think it’s just any old products are less intricate thus more repairable. E.g. Nokia phones are more repairable than iPhones. Older laptops are more repairable/upgradable than say latest XPS or a MacBook where everything is soldered on. 195x Ford Mustang is more repairable than a new one full of electronics.
  - illvm 5y ago
  - toper-centage 5y ago
    Hopefully, brands like Fairphone and Framework have some level of impact in the industry. I have decided to never buy a conventional phone or laptop again that is not modular and repairable like this, as long as brands like these exist.
  - markvdb 5y ago
    > I think it’s just any old products are less intricate thus more repairable. Often so indeed. I suspect it was not just old products though, but also something to do with a different alignment of incentives. Why would a Soviet car have used DRM for example?
- robomartin 5y ago
  > I would love to see an affordable, simple, modular, maintainable, repairable electric car. One can dream... I applaud the dream, of course. As someone mentioned, pretty much all older vehicles were infinitely more repairable than current designs, so, no USSR tech required. For the first ten or twelve years of my driving history I bought used cars with at least 80K miles (128 K km) in the odometer. This means I spent my weekends and some evenings under the hood or under the car. This is to say, I get it. The problem with electrics is that they are very far from "grease monkey" territory. When one starts dealing with high voltages and high current discharge capability, one very quickly leaves the domain of what the average person can and should be able to touch. In fact, lots of EE's lack the experience to safely deal with such devices. The good news is that they are much simpler (in the sense of the modules that make-up a vehicle) than the internal combustion version. First order repairs should take the form of changing modules. The factory can then deal with component level repair (think: motor controller).
pengaru 5y ago
This is giving me a distinct feeling of dejavu; didn't VW do something in this vein decades ago on the New Beetle when it came out? ISTR people being up in arms about the engine cover being labeled with something along the lines of warranty void if removed by unauthorized service personnel. It was especially memorable at the time because us Libre software folks used to use the analogy "you wouldn't buy a car with the hood welded shut" to try explain the difference between open and closed software to non-tech folks in the 90s. Then in 1998 VW shipped a car very much in the spirit of welding the hood shut. Am I going senile?
- deleted 5y ago
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kybernetyk 5y ago
>access by the customer [owner] is not permitted it's nice to own things, isn't it?
femto 5y ago
Perhaps a solution is to put a detailed description of what is under the hood into the owner's manual (photos, block diagram, schematics, ...)? After all, the main reason for opening the hood is probably curiosity, to have a look. Sate the curiosity in advance and the need to open the hood, and the associated risk, goes away.

81 points by danboarder 5y ago

Warning from the dash Console: "Only the specialist personnel of a qualified specialist workshop should open the hood. Access by the customer is not permitted.”

littlecranky67 5y ago
Since when do I need permission from the manufacturer to do with my property as I see fit? Legally, we (in Germany) already have the case that opening up a device not necessarily voids the warranty, so I wonder why they go with that.
- kube-system 5y ago
  That is the law in the US too. It's likely just a matter of persuasive messaging. They might not be able to void your warranty, but they might be able to lead you into thinking they can.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > they might be able to lead you into thinking they can. I can't help wondering if there is or should be some sort of law against corporations doing this. If they are trying to mislead you into not making use of a right which is legally yours, that feels a bit like fraud, or practising law without a licence. I'm reluctant to suggest that the government should limit even corporate free speech so much that companies become afraid to put warnings on things, and corporate lawyers would probably just come up with even more convoluted ways of phrasing things to technically comply with the law (or maliciously comply with it to make people hate the law), but perhaps some well-funded consumer body should be able to name and shame companies that do this.
    - littlecranky67 5y ago
      Splitting hairs here, but Mercedes would argue that it is meant to signal to leasing/rental cars that the user is not allowed to open (based on the rental agreement) so in those cases at least, it is not complete missleading.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      The FTC in the US has gone after companies that literally tell their customers that something invalidates their warranty, when under law, it wouldn't. But I feel like "you are not permitted" is an entirely different thing. It is so vague that it doesn't really have a clear meaning, and it leaves the reader to fill in the blanks.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Ever since the "you need to lock out tag out a circuit to change a cosmetic cover plate in your own home and you're just asking to be killed if you don't wear arc flash gear while doing it" crowd grew up and became PMs capable of "adding value" to design decisions that didn't really need any thought given to them in the first place. This kind of crap is just a reflection of the affects of modern culture that prizes risk aversion after you filter it though a massive corporate bureaucracy (like Mercedes)

h2odragon 5y ago

> "there’s no gas struts or prop, so something has to be jammed in there to prop the hood up.” I bet if you bitch at the dealer hard enough they'll include a bit of 2x4 when you buy the car. They're going for the cellphone model of ownership. Pay large for the thing, pay monthly to keep it working, and when it breaks: fuck you, buy another. I know some folks still puttering along with their 80s Mercedes diesels pushing for or past the million mile mark. Don't think that kind of thing will happen again, not from this company anyway.

skeeter2020 5y ago
>> They're going for the cellphone model of ownership. Pay large for the thing, Except this isn't the cell phone model. That would be "zero down; only $xxx per month on a two year contract, then get a new one." Being a car it can probably go 5 years. >> I bet if you bitch at the dealer hard enough they'll include a bit of 2x4 when you buy the car. Where will you store it though?
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  > Being a car it can probably go 5 years. That's a pathetic lifespan for such a large capital investment.
- decafninja 5y ago
  That's almost exactly the model it will be for most people getting cars like this - AKA leasing. Pay zero down*. $XXXX (certainly 4 digits for a car like this) per month for 36-39 months. Return it and lease another one. I suspect most luxury cars (and many non-luxury ones too) these days are leased like this, at least in the US. *or at most, taxes & fees, if even that.
- chris_st 5y ago
  > "zero down; only $xxx per month on a two year contract, then get a new one." Volvo did exactly this for one of their small SUVs (an inch or so shorter than my Prius, but a couple inches taller, about the same width). It was $600 a month, which included insurance (!) and at least maintenance. Don't know what happened with that experiment. I believe you had to commit to at least one year.

twobitshifter 5y ago

Ok, so maybe there is dangerous sparky stuff that can be reached in there - but it just shows poor design that they weren’t able to incorporate a frunk and/or isolate/insulate those components to not make opening the hood deathly dangerous.

0_____0 5y ago
It doesn't really look like there's any exposed HV. I'm curious why they bothered to cover up the hood latch at all. I think there's a certain tradition wherein blokes will stand around a car with the hood open and poke at it, perhaps they're trying to discourage that.
serf 5y ago
I mean.. I guess? Every other manufacturer in the world has hot pipes & spinning fans & hand-grabbing belts under the hood with little done to prevent personal injury and it has worked fine for decades. The EV market just wants everything to 'trend Tesla', so they expect a 'frunk' and for everything to be totally unlike any other ICE car on the road.
- ajross 5y ago
  That's not right, the frunk is a very natural feature given the design constraints. You need at least some space in front of the console, because the wheel wells need to be forward of the cockpit so the front seat occupants have a place to put their feet. Traditionally you put the engine there, because it was an obvious empty spot. Cars that didn't generally made significant tradeoffs (like two seats) to accomodate a different engine placement. But if you've got no engine, what can go there? Not the battery, that works much (much) better as a flat planar thing at the very bottom of the frame. You can put the motor there, sure, but an electric motor is tiny. Add in the random electronics and wiper fluid and whatnot and you still have a ton of space. So you make it cargo. It works great. EVs that don't have a frunk (the ID.4, ahem) end up feeling like they're missing a feature.
  - kfor 5y ago

awinter-py 5y ago

> “It’s an all electric car, nothing under the hood is user serviceable without special equipment to place the high voltage system into servicing mode.” 'no user serviceable parts within' from rainbows end

spoonjim 5y ago

If I can’t service the vehicle then don’t try to sell it to me, just lease it to me. I’d happily lease a non-serviceable vehicle as long as it had an all inclusive service contract for the lease duration.

decafninja 5y ago
I suspect most luxury cars already get leased (at least in the US) more than bought.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  After the first owner is done leasing them <insert middle men here> they get sold on used car lots.
  - decafninja 5y ago
    Yup, at which point it is no longer the manufacturer's problem other than reputationally (i.e. if the car is extremely prone to problems after the initial 3 year lease/warranty period). I am of the opinion that the majority of modern cars produced today - especially as you go higher up the price/luxury spectrum - are disposable appliances designed for obsolescence. The base mechanical bits might continue to function fine, but all the fancy technology won't be so fancy after 5 years, and certainly not 10 years. I think Teslas actually let you upgrade the CPU on the infotainment system (correct me if wrong)? Plus wider spread and use of CarPlay/Android Auto bakes in a little bit of future-proofing.
    - kristjansson 5y ago
      An undesirable infotainment system doesn't make a car disposable though. As long as the intra-car systems function for the design life of the components, an uncompetitive infotainment just reduces the potential resale value. Component failures are definitely a concern though, and incidental or intentional software failures via OTA, since either may be unrecoverable.
    - 5y ago

0_____0 5y ago

Y'all are on Hacker News, I think you can figure out how to remove a plastic cover over the hood latch if you really want to stare at some electronics housings. This is a lot more innocuous than the new habit carmakers have developed of charging subscriptions for basic vehicle functionality.

Thorncorona 5y ago
It's the precedent that is set.
- sho_hn 5y ago
  This isn't actually all that new: Quite a few of luxury automobiles have had non-serviceable engine compartments for many years. It's not uncommon particularly with high-end sports cars, where engine covers may only be removed by licensed technicians. Those tend to be held by special screws requiring non-standard tools or similar. Ironically it's often the engines one might want to marvel at the most.
  - malwrar 5y ago
    And it’s why I won’t buy a Ferrari. Half joking, of course, but seriously I think this sort of design choice just reinforces the idea that the manufacturer, not the buyer, owns the product. Locking the hood closed, the symbolic innards of your car, isnt the only way to build a car safely. I fear moves like this will just further alienate people from the tech they rely on.
    - sho_hn 5y ago
      I know exactly what you mean: I'm fond of pointing out that I probably wouldn't be a software engineer today if the computers I grew up with had been as locked down as an iPhone. It only sort-of works in a world that today also features a Raspberry Pi, but is not sustainable on its own. In my brain I refer to this as "educational sustainability" somehow (then again, isn't all education motivated by sustainability of civilization and culture?), but I'm sure smarter folks have discussed and given this a better label. That said, luxury sports cars are an oddball market with non-obvious concerns and economics. A lot of the limited production run cars these restrictions apply to are essentially too valuable to actually drive. They're collectors' items, or acquired as speculative goods that will increase in value. It may be that making them more "tamper-proof" is in a strange way in the interest of the buyers.

joshu 5y ago

So I got to spend a few days with a not-quite-production EQS over the summer. It's pretty obvious from the design language that it's not really a hood at all. For example, it extends all the way down to the wheels - the front side fender does not connect to the body panel in front of the doors, for example.

user982 5y ago

The crazy man smiled at her. "My shop project, Louise. I've had enough of 'no user-serviceable parts within.' Let's take a look." He leaned over the car's front hood and ran his finger down the printed words forbidding customer maintenance ... Gu sighted along the edge of the tray, then glanced to his right, at the Radner brothers. "You really don't want to be standing there." — Rainbows End

floatingatoll 5y ago

After reading the complete article, I have no specific objection to this. It's the same as posting "no trespassing" on a power substation; it stops idle curiosity from getting someone killed, provides a sensible safety precaution for high-voltage equipment, and is trivial for any motivated person (such as mechanics and HN readers) to overcome with basic tools. My car's gas engine does not consist exclusively of deadly high-voltage equipment in it that can kill me dead when my car is powered off, so I think it's fine to apply different safety processes to consumer-targeted electric cars than we apply to consumer-targeted gasoline cars. I can't speak to why they chose not to provide a user-accessible storage area, but it certainly does simplify design and safety testing to not have a frunk that could pop open after a latch failure and obstruct the windshield. (I assume the trunk can still store a full set of golf clubs and an overnight duffel bag — it is a Mercedes, after all.)

josephcsible 5y ago
> My car's gas engine does not consist exclusively of deadly high-voltage equipment in it that can kill me dead when my car is powered off, so I think it's fine to apply different safety processes to consumer-targeted electric cars than we apply to consumer-targeted gasoline cars. You're making it sound like EVs are more dangerous than ICE vehicles, which they're not. Also, no other EV manufacturer has said or done anything like this.
tragictrash 5y ago
Personally I would have liked to see the reasoning presented in that safety message. Something like "high voltage is present under the hood" or "only qualified personnel have the tools to safely open the hood". Same applies for your no trespassing example. I would like to see "no trespassing, danger high voltage"
- vilhelm_s 5y ago
  Isn't that kindof what the list of warnings below the message provides? I think you can click on them to expand them, and based on what's in the owner's manual I expect one of the warnings is about "components under voltage".

perryizgr8 5y ago

I don't buy the "it's too dangerous because of high voltage" argument. Ice cars have literally a bomb chamber within along with an assortment of fans and belts and hot liquids that will burn and maim you if you don't know what you're doing. But regular users have survived for a century with cars.

FartyMcFarter 5y ago
You can feel burning stuff from a distance using your regular caveman-era human hardware. Not necessarily high voltage electricity.
user-the-name 5y ago
Still nowhere near as dangerous as high voltage, especially given that an ICE has a very clear "engine is now on and angry" state, which doesn't exist in the same way for an electric car.
rsynnott 5y ago
It would be quite hard to kill yourself with an internal combustion engine. I mean... it's probably possible (somehow spray yourself with petrol, and then ignite it?) but it wouldn't be at all likely. The same can't really be said of electric car guts.
onphonenow 5y ago
Most service techs turn off the car (ICE) before working on it. So it's usually very clear if your hand can be caught by a fan belt or not (and not deadly if it is). When turned off and 12v battery disconnected, a car is pretty darn safe. Are you sure you can sense high voltage / high amperage as well?
- lowbloodsugar 5y ago
  Great story from my mechanic about how that one time they started a diesel and couldn't get it to stop. They even tried throwing rags into the intake. Then there was that time I had a rusty gas tank that we discovered when it leaked gasoline all over the shop till we got a drum under it. Or that time my car fell of its jacks (don't ask) and nearly broke both my legs.

kube-system 5y ago

Where is washer fluid filled from?

devrand 5y ago
There's an exterior door for it on the front fender.
- sho_hn 5y ago
  Check here: https://www.motor1.com/news/501268/mercedes-eqs-windshield-washer-fender/ https://www.motor1.com/news/501268/mercedes-eqs-windshield-w...
imilk 5y ago
Its an innovative process where you deposit money from your bank account to a Mercedes dealership, and then a certified washer fluid technician ensures that premium washer fluid is calibrated to optimal levels.
- stcredzero 5y ago
  How is that innovative, when Mercedes has been trending this way since the 1990's?
- tshaddox 5y ago
  You’d think they could do it with an over the air update by now.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  >optimal levels Ah, yes, calibrated. Let's say you are having it filled where the weather never gets below freezing, and driving to somewhere it does...

hirundo 5y ago

Louis Rossmann just weighed in on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVqUuzUWEY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVqUuzUWEY He says the "not permitted" is evidence of our receding risk tolerance. I agree. Warn me of the chance of sudden painful death, sure, and thanks. But to forbid me, presumably an adult, is a different thing. I prefer to own my own property.

user-the-name 5y ago
That's nonsense, though, and assumes that the dangers posed by an electric car are roughly the same as by an ICE car. 400 or 800 volts is no joke, and nothing that you find under the hood of an ICE car is anywhere even close to being as dangerous as that.
- hangonhn 5y ago
  Agreed. I work on my own cars but they're all ICE. Once the car is jacked up onto jack stands, I feel pretty safe working on my car because there is nothing moving nor live (except for the 12v, which I can disconnect). I don't know if that's the case for EVs.
  - onphonenow 5y ago
    Yeah, Rossmann is kind of an idiot. An EV car has high / deadly energy in its high voltage side. If you are going to do hundreds of volts and hundreds of amps to get a heavy vehicle to 60mph in 3 seconds, you simply must have some pretty high potential energy ready to go. I'm kind of surprised they don't have warnings for folks like first responders as well - imagine cutting through a tesla - seems if you go through a HV cable you could just create a big problem.
    - mulmen 5y ago
      It's a good question. I assume there's some amount of consistent design that allows safe assumptions on the part of emergency responders. Like not running fuel lines through doors and pillars. I have no idea if such a standard exists. Here's the first quack, looks like some fire departments actually do train on Teslas. Not sure if they also train on other models. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-jaws-of-life-first-responder-training/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-jaws-of-life-first-r...

avalys 5y ago

So, it seems like the answer here is, you open the hood exactly the same as you open the hood of any other vehicle, but with a plastic cover over the latch and some extra stickers and warnings?

weswilson 5y ago

The BMW i8 is just as complicated as the EQS, if not more. It requires two people to open the hood without damaging it. Here's some technician training on opening it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxe_b2GRwok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxe_b2GRwok It's not only electric cars, the new Porsche 911 GT3 won't let you access the engine either. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfu07Eq6pSc&t=632s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfu07Eq6pSc&t=632s

tschwimmer 5y ago
Wow, this was quite something. The fact that the emergency door latches are on the inside only raises many questions, as does the fact that the hood is so unwieldy. It's confusing to me that the hood was designed to be opened by 2 people and also that during "normal" operation it can easily damage the bumper. I realize they don't want people doing it themselves, but even for the mechanic this seems extremely annoying. Serviceability is clearly not a top value for these cars but it seems like it's not even considered at all.

boznz 5y ago

I dont have any issues with this. Modern petrol and diesel engines should be serviced every 100-300 hours depending upon how they are driven but Brushless Electric motors have no such requirement and can run for many thousands of hours, the failure point on most electric motors are the controllers and bearings if in inhospitable environments. A well designed EV coolant systems can work without servicing for the life of a vehicle

voldacar 5y ago

A little off topic but I have to say that the design of this car is very disappointing. It looks like a formless bar of soap. If I glanced at it on the road I'd think it was a Toyota or something

chris_st 5y ago

Point of comparison -- I can open the hood of my Prius, and would need for various fluids, but everything else is covered by a plastic cover that warns of the high voltage bits underneath.

markvdb 5y ago

I see this, and it makes me think of an idea that has spooked my mind again and again... Please allow me to for for one moment ignore all shortcomings of the USSR and its products. I do realise that for some of you, this must be quite a stretch. USSR products often breathed a design language much closer to modularity, maintainability and repairability. I would love to see an affordable, simple, modular, maintainable, repairable electric car. One can dream...

coolspot 5y ago
> USSR products often breathed a design language much closer to modularity, maintainability and repairability. I think it’s just any old products are less intricate thus more repairable. E.g. Nokia phones are more repairable than iPhones. Older laptops are more repairable/upgradable than say latest XPS or a MacBook where everything is soldered on. 195x Ford Mustang is more repairable than a new one full of electronics.
- illvm 5y ago
- toper-centage 5y ago
  Hopefully, brands like Fairphone and Framework have some level of impact in the industry. I have decided to never buy a conventional phone or laptop again that is not modular and repairable like this, as long as brands like these exist.
- markvdb 5y ago
  > I think it’s just any old products are less intricate thus more repairable. Often so indeed. I suspect it was not just old products though, but also something to do with a different alignment of incentives. Why would a Soviet car have used DRM for example?
robomartin 5y ago
> I would love to see an affordable, simple, modular, maintainable, repairable electric car. One can dream... I applaud the dream, of course. As someone mentioned, pretty much all older vehicles were infinitely more repairable than current designs, so, no USSR tech required. For the first ten or twelve years of my driving history I bought used cars with at least 80K miles (128 K km) in the odometer. This means I spent my weekends and some evenings under the hood or under the car. This is to say, I get it. The problem with electrics is that they are very far from "grease monkey" territory. When one starts dealing with high voltages and high current discharge capability, one very quickly leaves the domain of what the average person can and should be able to touch. In fact, lots of EE's lack the experience to safely deal with such devices. The good news is that they are much simpler (in the sense of the modules that make-up a vehicle) than the internal combustion version. First order repairs should take the form of changing modules. The factory can then deal with component level repair (think: motor controller).

pengaru 5y ago

This is giving me a distinct feeling of dejavu; didn't VW do something in this vein decades ago on the New Beetle when it came out? ISTR people being up in arms about the engine cover being labeled with something along the lines of warranty void if removed by unauthorized service personnel. It was especially memorable at the time because us Libre software folks used to use the analogy "you wouldn't buy a car with the hood welded shut" to try explain the difference between open and closed software to non-tech folks in the 90s. Then in 1998 VW shipped a car very much in the spirit of welding the hood shut. Am I going senile?

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kybernetyk 5y ago

>access by the customer [owner] is not permitted it's nice to own things, isn't it?

femto 5y ago

Perhaps a solution is to put a detailed description of what is under the hood into the owner's manual (photos, block diagram, schematics, ...)? After all, the main reason for opening the hood is probably curiosity, to have a look. Sate the curiosity in advance and the need to open the hood, and the associated risk, goes away.