4 ms·

You are describing multi-ethical cultural relativism, which is a feel-good idea indeed, but if you think about it, you'll quite quickly arrive at the realisatio

You are describing multi-ethical cultural relativism, which is a feel-good idea indeed, but if you think about it, you'll quite quickly arrive at the realisation that the worst atrocities imaginable could be excused with it: "But if it's their culture / tradition...?" In the real world, all cultures constantly judge other cultures by their own morals and values. There is still a lot of stuff in modern Japanese and Korean culture that must not be brought to international attention, or the meticulously built image would be shattered, with consequences for political and economical relations. Not many people know that in Japan for example, organised crime syndicates have official, legal business addresses and office buildings. Imagine any Western country allowing that - it would be shunned by its partners in an instant.

helij 5y ago
"Not many people know that in Japan for example, organised crime syndicates have official, legal business addresses and office buildings. Imagine any Western country allowing that - it would be shunned by its partners in an instant." Can you please recommend any good books to get to know the subject. This to me sounds so out of place that it would be interesting to know more.
- suction 5y ago
  If you're looking for books on the subject of organised crime in Japan, it's hard to recommend anything. Maybe this one: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/762585.Yakuza https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/762585.Yakuza To get a grasp of the darker sides of modern Japan, I wholly recommend these two books: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/254259.Japan https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/254259.Japan and https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93803.Dogs_and_Demons https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93803.Dogs_and_Demons Both are real eye openers. The first is a must-read and very good overview. The latter concentrates on post-WW2's construction state but don't be repelled by that, because the construction sector is what is at the base of Japan's current problems. For a more scholarly but dryer take, the end-all book for people who want to know what's behind the curtain in Japanese society is this (I really enjoyed it but it's a long read): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/274912.The_Enigma_of_Japanese_Power?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=ggHRwPOfqJ&rank=1 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/274912.The_Enigma_of_Jap...
  - suction 5y ago
    Also, a source for the claim that the Yakuza groups have officially known headquarters: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/04/08/japans-yakuza-arent-disappearing-theyre-getting-smarter/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/...
RyEgswuCsn 5y ago
Yes, there are certainly some acts that are universally recognised as atrocities/intolerable, but such acts are not unique to the East; the West also had its fair share of organised crime. If we agree that societies all tend to gravitate towards a more progressive model as they develop, then perhaps the discussion would be more of an modern-vs-historic one rather than East-vs-West one.
- suction 5y ago
  > the West also had its fair share of organised crime That's missing the point: Which is that in Japan (and maybe other East Asian societies), organised crime isn't even seen as crime, and the people perpetrating it aren't seen as criminals. They don't have to do it in the underground like for instance the Mafia has to in Italy. Only after WW2 when the US restructured Japan somewhat, they forced Japan to call these syndicates "organised crime". Before that, they were simply a part of society that "might do some bad stuff, but only to people who deserve it" but also "lots of good for the community". Not many people in Japan will agree or even know what you mean when you tell them you think the Yakuza is a problem for Japanese society. They are well liked, unless they draw negative attention to Japan itself. Also: Whataboutism.
  - RyEgswuCsn 5y ago
    > organised crime isn't even seen as crime, and the people perpetrating it aren't seen as criminals Do you speak of your own first-hand experience, or you got the impression from some material you read? I don't think they are that different from how Mafia is perceived. Regarding Whataboutism --- I find the accusation really low-effort. My point has never been "The West has/had organised crime so what's the problem with the East having it?"; rather, I am pointing out how you seem to think "The West is superior just because and the East should appreciate being patronisied by the West", while the West had also experienced many of the issues you described. Of course Japan has its problems, but I'd argue it would be up to the Japanese people to figure out what they are and how to solve them.
    - suction 5y ago

helij 5y ago

"Not many people know that in Japan for example, organised crime syndicates have official, legal business addresses and office buildings. Imagine any Western country allowing that - it would be shunned by its partners in an instant." Can you please recommend any good books to get to know the subject. This to me sounds so out of place that it would be interesting to know more.

suction 5y ago
If you're looking for books on the subject of organised crime in Japan, it's hard to recommend anything. Maybe this one: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/762585.Yakuza https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/762585.Yakuza To get a grasp of the darker sides of modern Japan, I wholly recommend these two books: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/254259.Japan https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/254259.Japan and https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93803.Dogs_and_Demons https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93803.Dogs_and_Demons Both are real eye openers. The first is a must-read and very good overview. The latter concentrates on post-WW2's construction state but don't be repelled by that, because the construction sector is what is at the base of Japan's current problems. For a more scholarly but dryer take, the end-all book for people who want to know what's behind the curtain in Japanese society is this (I really enjoyed it but it's a long read): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/274912.The_Enigma_of_Japanese_Power?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=ggHRwPOfqJ&rank=1 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/274912.The_Enigma_of_Jap...
- suction 5y ago
  Also, a source for the claim that the Yakuza groups have officially known headquarters: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/04/08/japans-yakuza-arent-disappearing-theyre-getting-smarter/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/...

RyEgswuCsn 5y ago

Yes, there are certainly some acts that are universally recognised as atrocities/intolerable, but such acts are not unique to the East; the West also had its fair share of organised crime. If we agree that societies all tend to gravitate towards a more progressive model as they develop, then perhaps the discussion would be more of an modern-vs-historic one rather than East-vs-West one.

suction 5y ago
> the West also had its fair share of organised crime That's missing the point: Which is that in Japan (and maybe other East Asian societies), organised crime isn't even seen as crime, and the people perpetrating it aren't seen as criminals. They don't have to do it in the underground like for instance the Mafia has to in Italy. Only after WW2 when the US restructured Japan somewhat, they forced Japan to call these syndicates "organised crime". Before that, they were simply a part of society that "might do some bad stuff, but only to people who deserve it" but also "lots of good for the community". Not many people in Japan will agree or even know what you mean when you tell them you think the Yakuza is a problem for Japanese society. They are well liked, unless they draw negative attention to Japan itself. Also: Whataboutism.
- RyEgswuCsn 5y ago
  > organised crime isn't even seen as crime, and the people perpetrating it aren't seen as criminals Do you speak of your own first-hand experience, or you got the impression from some material you read? I don't think they are that different from how Mafia is perceived. Regarding Whataboutism --- I find the accusation really low-effort. My point has never been "The West has/had organised crime so what's the problem with the East having it?"; rather, I am pointing out how you seem to think "The West is superior just because and the East should appreciate being patronisied by the West", while the West had also experienced many of the issues you described. Of course Japan has its problems, but I'd argue it would be up to the Japanese people to figure out what they are and how to solve them.
  - suction 5y ago