5 ms·

As a non-native english speaker (french), I was pronouncing those words wrong I guess: debt, doubt, plumber, subtle, indict, and island

jstanley 5y ago
How were you saying "indict"?
- dorianmariefr 5y ago
  https://voca.ro/17YDT0eVw4Jh https://voca.ro/17YDT0eVw4Jh
  - jstanley 5y ago
    Isn't that correct?
    - yorwba 5y ago
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/indict https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/indict
    - jeroenhd 5y ago
      The correct (or at least, American English) pronunciation is "indite" (see https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/indict https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/indict for an audio file). The -c- is completely silent. In true confusing English fashion, "indite" still exists, with a different meaning from "indict".
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      "Correct" is an under-specified term when discussing english pronunciation. "Received Pronunciation" (roughly, BBC English) is full of all kinds of historical mispronunciations that have become standard, often as a result of the upper classes adopting some working-class tic as a fashion. Dropping the aitch from "historical" would be an example; it was a cockney habit, adopted by posh people. It's mostly faded among folk that talk proper nowadays (at least in England; aitch-dropping seems to have survived among some groups in the US). But a lot of what's considered standard pronunciation derives from horrible mispronunciations by posh people. [Edit] "An hotel" (with the aitch sounded) is simply incorrect; You only use "an" if you're going to drop the aitch. My mother once heard the following sound, brayed loudly in the quad at St. John's College, Oxford: "Eh-oh, heeliaw meekyeh!" (Oh, hello Mickey). That strangled accent was common among the huntin/shootin/fishin crowd. There was a fellow from the BBC Pronunciation Unit on the radio a couple of weeks ago, explaining (in a jokey way, as if to say it's a fuss about nothing) that "omicron" can be pronounced several ways, and that the unit had chosen OM-ee-cron. I did a term of classical greek at school; the first thing we learned was the alphabet, and we were taught to pronounce it oh-MY-cron. Classicist Mary Beard says it's oh-ME-cron, but I suspect she's inferring the way it might have been pronounced in Ancient Greece. Boris Johnson is a classicist; I'm sure he was taught to pronounce it the same way I was. But he's using the BBC version, at least in public. Anyhow, my confidence in the BBC Pronunciation Unit has gone down several notches this winter.
      - ogogmad 5y ago
        > Dropping the aitch from "historical" would be an example; it was a cockney habit, adopted by posh people I'll need to check this. If the word came from Old French or any post-Latin Romance language, then the "h" would almost certainly be silent. The "h"s in Vulgar Latin were all silent except among educated speakers. Pronouncing the "h" in "historical" or "hotel" is almost certainly originally a spelling pronunciation. It may have started out as a hypercorrection, just like pronouncing the "h" in "vehicle" when it should really be "vee-icle".
        denton-scratch 5y ago
        Most latin-ish words in english came from Anglo-Norman; but some came earlier, from Old French. But it seems that phases of aitch-dropping have occurred repeatedly. https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2016/02/h-dropping.html https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2016/02/h-dropping.html That's an interesting article, and apparently the hhistory of dropped aitches is much more complicated than I suggested. But I don't entirely agree with it. It says it's correct to use the indefinite article before a noun starting with an aspirated aitch; I don't know anybody that talks like that, and it sounds awfully pompous.
bloak 5y ago
Were you aware that the "t" in "often" is traditionally not pronounced? (On the one hand it's a very common word, so someone learning English as a foreign language might have been taught the "correct" pronunciation. On the other hand, it's something that many native speakers of English, particularly younger and less well educated speakers, get "wrong" so teaching the "correct" pronunciation may be assigned a lower priority. Also, for all I know, perhaps the "t" should be pronounced in some dialects of English; I only know standard British English.)
- Koshkin 5y ago
  More often than not it is pronounced, though.
- jibcage 5y ago
  I know many American speakers who pronounce the “t” in often, for the record. In fact, now that I think about it, I might do the same myself sometimes.
yodsanklai 5y ago
I don't know what could have been done differently in my English learning journey, but it's quite odd that I'm still unable to pronounce extremely simple words, even after living years in the US and the UK. There are many simple words that I only recently learned to pronounce correctly. For instance, "write" is pronounced as "right", and "vegetable" is not pronounced as "table". In these particular cases, it's not that that I'm unable to generate the proper sounds, but I just never learned the correct pronunciation. Nobody ever corrected me until recently.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  > Nobody ever corrected me until recently. Part of the problem there is that English has enough regional accents that we're all exposed to on a day-to-day basis that if you're understandable most people won't realize you're pronouncing something "wrong" instead of "differently".
- anticensor 5y ago
  Vegetable the noun is pronounced with /'-əbl/ and vegetable the adjective is pronounced with /-'eibl/.
msravi 5y ago
Plumber is a new one for me. I always used to pronounce the 'b'. TIL!
- Koshkin 5y ago
  “Lambda” doesn’t have a ‘b’ sound in it, either.
ncpa-cpl 5y ago
Wow, I didn't know about "indict"! I think it's one of those words I have read or listened but never had to pronounce.

jstanley 5y ago

How were you saying "indict"?

dorianmariefr 5y ago
https://voca.ro/17YDT0eVw4Jh https://voca.ro/17YDT0eVw4Jh
- jstanley 5y ago
  Isn't that correct?
  - yorwba 5y ago
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/indict https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/indict
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    The correct (or at least, American English) pronunciation is "indite" (see https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/indict https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/indict for an audio file). The -c- is completely silent. In true confusing English fashion, "indite" still exists, with a different meaning from "indict".
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    "Correct" is an under-specified term when discussing english pronunciation. "Received Pronunciation" (roughly, BBC English) is full of all kinds of historical mispronunciations that have become standard, often as a result of the upper classes adopting some working-class tic as a fashion. Dropping the aitch from "historical" would be an example; it was a cockney habit, adopted by posh people. It's mostly faded among folk that talk proper nowadays (at least in England; aitch-dropping seems to have survived among some groups in the US). But a lot of what's considered standard pronunciation derives from horrible mispronunciations by posh people. [Edit] "An hotel" (with the aitch sounded) is simply incorrect; You only use "an" if you're going to drop the aitch. My mother once heard the following sound, brayed loudly in the quad at St. John's College, Oxford: "Eh-oh, heeliaw meekyeh!" (Oh, hello Mickey). That strangled accent was common among the huntin/shootin/fishin crowd. There was a fellow from the BBC Pronunciation Unit on the radio a couple of weeks ago, explaining (in a jokey way, as if to say it's a fuss about nothing) that "omicron" can be pronounced several ways, and that the unit had chosen OM-ee-cron. I did a term of classical greek at school; the first thing we learned was the alphabet, and we were taught to pronounce it oh-MY-cron. Classicist Mary Beard says it's oh-ME-cron, but I suspect she's inferring the way it might have been pronounced in Ancient Greece. Boris Johnson is a classicist; I'm sure he was taught to pronounce it the same way I was. But he's using the BBC version, at least in public. Anyhow, my confidence in the BBC Pronunciation Unit has gone down several notches this winter.
    - ogogmad 5y ago
      > Dropping the aitch from "historical" would be an example; it was a cockney habit, adopted by posh people I'll need to check this. If the word came from Old French or any post-Latin Romance language, then the "h" would almost certainly be silent. The "h"s in Vulgar Latin were all silent except among educated speakers. Pronouncing the "h" in "historical" or "hotel" is almost certainly originally a spelling pronunciation. It may have started out as a hypercorrection, just like pronouncing the "h" in "vehicle" when it should really be "vee-icle".
      - denton-scratch 5y ago
        Most latin-ish words in english came from Anglo-Norman; but some came earlier, from Old French. But it seems that phases of aitch-dropping have occurred repeatedly. https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2016/02/h-dropping.html https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2016/02/h-dropping.html That's an interesting article, and apparently the hhistory of dropped aitches is much more complicated than I suggested. But I don't entirely agree with it. It says it's correct to use the indefinite article before a noun starting with an aspirated aitch; I don't know anybody that talks like that, and it sounds awfully pompous.

bloak 5y ago

Were you aware that the "t" in "often" is traditionally not pronounced? (On the one hand it's a very common word, so someone learning English as a foreign language might have been taught the "correct" pronunciation. On the other hand, it's something that many native speakers of English, particularly younger and less well educated speakers, get "wrong" so teaching the "correct" pronunciation may be assigned a lower priority. Also, for all I know, perhaps the "t" should be pronounced in some dialects of English; I only know standard British English.)

Koshkin 5y ago
More often than not it is pronounced, though.
jibcage 5y ago
I know many American speakers who pronounce the “t” in often, for the record. In fact, now that I think about it, I might do the same myself sometimes.

yodsanklai 5y ago

I don't know what could have been done differently in my English learning journey, but it's quite odd that I'm still unable to pronounce extremely simple words, even after living years in the US and the UK. There are many simple words that I only recently learned to pronounce correctly. For instance, "write" is pronounced as "right", and "vegetable" is not pronounced as "table". In these particular cases, it's not that that I'm unable to generate the proper sounds, but I just never learned the correct pronunciation. Nobody ever corrected me until recently.

saalweachter 5y ago
> Nobody ever corrected me until recently. Part of the problem there is that English has enough regional accents that we're all exposed to on a day-to-day basis that if you're understandable most people won't realize you're pronouncing something "wrong" instead of "differently".
anticensor 5y ago
Vegetable the noun is pronounced with /'-əbl/ and vegetable the adjective is pronounced with /-'eibl/.

msravi 5y ago

Plumber is a new one for me. I always used to pronounce the 'b'. TIL!

Koshkin 5y ago
“Lambda” doesn’t have a ‘b’ sound in it, either.

ncpa-cpl 5y ago

Wow, I didn't know about "indict"! I think it's one of those words I have read or listened but never had to pronounce.