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Nobody in some nobodyland. Majority in the world would. It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two

Nobody in some nobodyland. Majority in the world would. It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two non-natives speak two each other. "Fancy" pronunciation can make things impossible, as only native speakers can understand where you are aiming at.

ncmncm 5y ago
Anybody who knows won't.
- timonoko 5y ago
  Me knows, but I wont. Some bulgarian innkeeper will not understands any detts. But insists on me paying my deBts with special emphasis on "B".
  - toxik 5y ago
    I wouldn’t even try to use that word. I find that I can only speak as well as I write when I talk to near native speakers… I’d just say I want to pay or something
    - szszrk 5y ago
      Which in exchange makes you easier to understand in most of the world. I have this with "rare" - such a problematic word for a slavic person and even if you nail it, non-native speakers may not get you. So it's better to actually say it with your mother tongue accent. "Rare" can often be substituted by "seldom", but that doesn't work very well in restaurants. I like my steak medium-well anyway.
      - toxik 5y ago
        "I would like my stake medium seldom, please." I have a hard time with the word "ineligible" - easy to read and write, but I just cannot say it without stumbling. No particular part of the word is hard either, it just... comes out wrong. I think it may be unusual way you turn it into syllables: in-el-i-gi-ble.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        My grandfather, who grew up in Santa Rosa, California, could not say "monogamous".
KronisLV 5y ago
> It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two non-natives speak two each other. "Fancy" pronunciation can make things impossible, as only native speakers can understand where you are aiming at. Heh, this seems like the right thing to do when you think about it. Why should we keep track of some odd rules that only exist for historical reasons and aren't really... you know, written down?
- Ekaros 5y ago
  If they haven't cared enough to fix their mess of pulling half dozen or more sources, why should I care to follow the mess...
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  The problem isn’t the pronunciation. The problem is the spelling. Just need to get rid of all those pesky silent letters.
szszrk 5y ago
This is true to the bone. It's hilarious how many native speakers ignore this - even knowingly. It also goes beyond pronunciation into local slang and choice of vocabulary. In my experience "Native Speakers" often don't understand each other correctly (of course random ones, from different parts of world) - plenty of tiny misunderstandings due to the tempo of conversation. 5 random non-native speakers may have all bad accents but they speak freely. When a native speaker joins the room the other 5 suddenly say they can't keep up and native speaker doesn't know how to fix that. I'm not even generalizing - seen it in practice many times. I find it very true in daily technical conversations with other companies, conferences and on any type of trainings (online courses as well). Non native speakers tend to get to the point more easily. It's easier for themselves. Then don't try to dazzle you with funny wordplay and jokes that make no sense outside of speakers country. It takes a lot of skill for a native speaker to be pleasant for foreigners.
- tpaulin 5y ago
  This sums up my experience travelling and living abroad. To your point on vocab choice: if I use vocab not present/with different meaning in American English I would get blank stares so I often switch to the American term e.g. mobile phone vs cell phone. To your other point about local slang: I recently learned South Africans call traffic lights "robots", which I thought was fantastic.
- ed312 5y ago
  For strictly technical communication you make a great point - we probably should try to work with a "standardized" or "international" English. That said, something about your comment struck me as deeply sad: the "funny wordplay" injects some personality and novelty into communication. I don't want to live in a world where we communicate in a strict manner for utilitarian purposes only (including at work).
  - szszrk 5y ago
    It's a bit more narrow than this. Jokes, sarcasm, all kind of cheerful additions are almost always acceptable and welcomed unless you actually discuss some actual tragedy. "Foreigners" just don't joke in the same way, as it's hard to deliver a punch line, not to mention a properly timed one. I think that "personality" you talk about is still there on both sides, but is very different. The "native" one is great but hard to understand. But English speakers that I talked with (or listened to online) love actual wordplay. It's part of their culture. Tiny rhymes, replacing words with wrong ones that sound similar and "everyone knows what he meant". Anything that you could comment as "pun intended" or "pun not intended" might be super hard to grasp for a foreigner. It often requires listener to know correct pronunciation and some phrasal verbs to get it and often knowing some facts from that country. I usually understand these things when said by Americans, but lack knowledge to understand similar "puns" by other nations. I know for a fact that most of my colleagues don't understand most of those. They might get that there was a joke there, but they won't know if it's commenting the topic positively or negatively.
pessimizer 5y ago
Pronouncing the 'b' in debt is just about impossible for anyone with an intelligible English accent. You have to shove a vowel in there which would likely result in 'debit', a different but related word that could create potential subtle and disastrous misunderstandings. Even if it were non-native speaker saying 'debit' when they meant 'debt' to another non-native speaker. Maybe it'd be better to spell it 'degt'. Those consonants almost work smashed together, and 'deggit' or 'decked' would be confusing enough to get clarified. edit: maybe people pronounce it like 'depth' with the 'th' replaced with a 't'?
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Native English speakers can pronounce the unvoiced version in "kept", is it really hard to replace the voiceless 'p' with a voiced 'b'? For what it's worth, "bt" is not a common combination in my native Romanian either, but it is not hard to pronounce.
  - Tagbert 5y ago
    Yes, it is harder to handle the transition of voiced B to unvoiced T than it is to handle the transition from unvoiced P to unvoiced T. If you try to voice the B, you will likely end up with a voiced D at the end “Debd”. It can be done with lots of practice but native speakers don’t normally do this.
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      That's a bit strange, since the vowel is already voiced, but I do believe you - it just goes to show how complex our vocal apparatus and systems of pronunciation are.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  The only difficulty with "debt" from the perspective of English pronunciation is that B is voiced and T isn't. So you're right that "depped" or "debbed" would be more natural. But there's no need to add an epenthetic vowel.
- 5y ago
codingdave 5y ago
As a native speaker, that is an interesting take on it and one I had not considered before, so thanks for pointing it out. It meshes well with my overall attitude when I see incorrect English - to accept people wherever their language skills may fall. After all, even us natives make mistakes. As long as we can understand each other, perfect language is irrelevant.
- kmstout 5y ago
  > After all, even us natives make mistakes. Aye, we natives sometimes do. ;) My morning pedantry complete, I shall stand aside while the next greater pedant corrects this comment. Let the games begin!

ncmncm 5y ago

Anybody who knows won't.

timonoko 5y ago
Me knows, but I wont. Some bulgarian innkeeper will not understands any detts. But insists on me paying my deBts with special emphasis on "B".
- toxik 5y ago
  I wouldn’t even try to use that word. I find that I can only speak as well as I write when I talk to near native speakers… I’d just say I want to pay or something
  - szszrk 5y ago
    Which in exchange makes you easier to understand in most of the world. I have this with "rare" - such a problematic word for a slavic person and even if you nail it, non-native speakers may not get you. So it's better to actually say it with your mother tongue accent. "Rare" can often be substituted by "seldom", but that doesn't work very well in restaurants. I like my steak medium-well anyway.
    - toxik 5y ago
      "I would like my stake medium seldom, please." I have a hard time with the word "ineligible" - easy to read and write, but I just cannot say it without stumbling. No particular part of the word is hard either, it just... comes out wrong. I think it may be unusual way you turn it into syllables: in-el-i-gi-ble.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        My grandfather, who grew up in Santa Rosa, California, could not say "monogamous".

KronisLV 5y ago

> It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two non-natives speak two each other. "Fancy" pronunciation can make things impossible, as only native speakers can understand where you are aiming at. Heh, this seems like the right thing to do when you think about it. Why should we keep track of some odd rules that only exist for historical reasons and aren't really... you know, written down?

Ekaros 5y ago
If they haven't cared enough to fix their mess of pulling half dozen or more sources, why should I care to follow the mess...
amanaplanacanal 5y ago
The problem isn’t the pronunciation. The problem is the spelling. Just need to get rid of all those pesky silent letters.

szszrk 5y ago

This is true to the bone. It's hilarious how many native speakers ignore this - even knowingly. It also goes beyond pronunciation into local slang and choice of vocabulary. In my experience "Native Speakers" often don't understand each other correctly (of course random ones, from different parts of world) - plenty of tiny misunderstandings due to the tempo of conversation. 5 random non-native speakers may have all bad accents but they speak freely. When a native speaker joins the room the other 5 suddenly say they can't keep up and native speaker doesn't know how to fix that. I'm not even generalizing - seen it in practice many times. I find it very true in daily technical conversations with other companies, conferences and on any type of trainings (online courses as well). Non native speakers tend to get to the point more easily. It's easier for themselves. Then don't try to dazzle you with funny wordplay and jokes that make no sense outside of speakers country. It takes a lot of skill for a native speaker to be pleasant for foreigners.

tpaulin 5y ago
This sums up my experience travelling and living abroad. To your point on vocab choice: if I use vocab not present/with different meaning in American English I would get blank stares so I often switch to the American term e.g. mobile phone vs cell phone. To your other point about local slang: I recently learned South Africans call traffic lights "robots", which I thought was fantastic.
ed312 5y ago
For strictly technical communication you make a great point - we probably should try to work with a "standardized" or "international" English. That said, something about your comment struck me as deeply sad: the "funny wordplay" injects some personality and novelty into communication. I don't want to live in a world where we communicate in a strict manner for utilitarian purposes only (including at work).
- szszrk 5y ago
  It's a bit more narrow than this. Jokes, sarcasm, all kind of cheerful additions are almost always acceptable and welcomed unless you actually discuss some actual tragedy. "Foreigners" just don't joke in the same way, as it's hard to deliver a punch line, not to mention a properly timed one. I think that "personality" you talk about is still there on both sides, but is very different. The "native" one is great but hard to understand. But English speakers that I talked with (or listened to online) love actual wordplay. It's part of their culture. Tiny rhymes, replacing words with wrong ones that sound similar and "everyone knows what he meant". Anything that you could comment as "pun intended" or "pun not intended" might be super hard to grasp for a foreigner. It often requires listener to know correct pronunciation and some phrasal verbs to get it and often knowing some facts from that country. I usually understand these things when said by Americans, but lack knowledge to understand similar "puns" by other nations. I know for a fact that most of my colleagues don't understand most of those. They might get that there was a joke there, but they won't know if it's commenting the topic positively or negatively.

pessimizer 5y ago

Pronouncing the 'b' in debt is just about impossible for anyone with an intelligible English accent. You have to shove a vowel in there which would likely result in 'debit', a different but related word that could create potential subtle and disastrous misunderstandings. Even if it were non-native speaker saying 'debit' when they meant 'debt' to another non-native speaker. Maybe it'd be better to spell it 'degt'. Those consonants almost work smashed together, and 'deggit' or 'decked' would be confusing enough to get clarified. edit: maybe people pronounce it like 'depth' with the 'th' replaced with a 't'?

tsimionescu 5y ago
Native English speakers can pronounce the unvoiced version in "kept", is it really hard to replace the voiceless 'p' with a voiced 'b'? For what it's worth, "bt" is not a common combination in my native Romanian either, but it is not hard to pronounce.
- Tagbert 5y ago
  Yes, it is harder to handle the transition of voiced B to unvoiced T than it is to handle the transition from unvoiced P to unvoiced T. If you try to voice the B, you will likely end up with a voiced D at the end “Debd”. It can be done with lots of practice but native speakers don’t normally do this.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    That's a bit strange, since the vowel is already voiced, but I do believe you - it just goes to show how complex our vocal apparatus and systems of pronunciation are.
thaumasiotes 5y ago
The only difficulty with "debt" from the perspective of English pronunciation is that B is voiced and T isn't. So you're right that "depped" or "debbed" would be more natural. But there's no need to add an epenthetic vowel.
5y ago

codingdave 5y ago

As a native speaker, that is an interesting take on it and one I had not considered before, so thanks for pointing it out. It meshes well with my overall attitude when I see incorrect English - to accept people wherever their language skills may fall. After all, even us natives make mistakes. As long as we can understand each other, perfect language is irrelevant.

kmstout 5y ago
> After all, even us natives make mistakes. Aye, we natives sometimes do. ;) My morning pedantry complete, I shall stand aside while the next greater pedant corrects this comment. Let the games begin!