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What's the deal with moving to Berlin anyway? Infrastructure is pretty bad (try getting good internet or mobile reception, even as a business), as are labor an

by harha 5y ago

What's the deal with moving to Berlin anyway? Infrastructure is pretty bad (try getting good internet or mobile reception, even as a business), as are labor and tax laws and the motivation of most employees is pretty low as a result (high security, limited mobility - need tenure to retain the security, low impact of actions - both under and over performing), additionally, everything is a bureaucratic nightmare, better get out the fax machine.

sofixa 5y ago
ASML didn't move to Berlin, they acquired a former supplier, Berliner Glass, which was founded there in 1952. Labour and tax laws can be an advantage (some people are more productive when not under stress, which is much more of a factor if you can get fired for whatever reason).
- harha 5y ago
  They could, but I think the German laws are way too complicated and limiting to serve their actual purpose. For instance many tax breaks will only work if some very tight conditions are met, like spending a certain amount on something or if your home has an extra room to count for wfh. Labor laws and bureaucracy make it incredibly complicated for freelancers, so there may be many who remain miserable in their corporate jobs.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    That issue with tax breaks is the same basically everywhere in the world. In the US, you would typically have to talk to a professional to understand if you are eligible for so and so tax break, it's very easy to get it wrong yourself. As far as labor laws, there are few developped countries in the world where they are more permissive for freelancers. In almost every single one of them, there exist even worse roadblocks. That's not to say the process couldn't be improved, but the competition isn't so much better as one would think.
legulere 5y ago
Taxes are low for businesses in Germany if you take the numerous possibilities to deduct things from your taxes into account (effectively lower than in the US). It's just taxes and levies for workers that are high. Tech workers cost way less than in the US. High security for workers also means that your workers won't pull stupid stunts to keep working in your place. Unions can actually worked with and have the companies success in mind.
avh02 5y ago
Relative to a first world country, it's true, the internet is bad. But at least in Berlin, if you want (as a company) to get good internet, it's possible, there are providers such as colt that have metropolitan fiber and will literally dig trenches to connect you. On the labour and tax laws side, work life balance is a thing, presenteeism is not. Being comfortable living your actual life is important to people, and while the average person won't get exceptionally wealthy (software developers are well paid, but not exactly millionaires) they will at least enjoy their lives, along with a large portion of the rest of the population. I can't speak for other people, but career progression is still a thing, aspirations to be better at what you do is possible without a carrot and stick. Things are bureaucratic, i agree, but there is also some pragmatism to it you don't notice until you're in it.
KarlKemp 5y ago
People aren't motivated by existential dread, at least not in creative jobs. The time of the fax has passed except for specific industries like healthcare and shipping, with the latter being notorious for using fax worldwide. Employees at startups are easily 50% international. Someone willing to move to a different country has already shown more initiative and willingness to take risks and forgo the comfort of safety than the vast majority of people will ever do.

by harha 5y ago

sofixa 5y ago

ASML didn't move to Berlin, they acquired a former supplier, Berliner Glass, which was founded there in 1952. Labour and tax laws can be an advantage (some people are more productive when not under stress, which is much more of a factor if you can get fired for whatever reason).

harha 5y ago
They could, but I think the German laws are way too complicated and limiting to serve their actual purpose. For instance many tax breaks will only work if some very tight conditions are met, like spending a certain amount on something or if your home has an extra room to count for wfh. Labor laws and bureaucracy make it incredibly complicated for freelancers, so there may be many who remain miserable in their corporate jobs.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That issue with tax breaks is the same basically everywhere in the world. In the US, you would typically have to talk to a professional to understand if you are eligible for so and so tax break, it's very easy to get it wrong yourself. As far as labor laws, there are few developped countries in the world where they are more permissive for freelancers. In almost every single one of them, there exist even worse roadblocks. That's not to say the process couldn't be improved, but the competition isn't so much better as one would think.

legulere 5y ago

Taxes are low for businesses in Germany if you take the numerous possibilities to deduct things from your taxes into account (effectively lower than in the US). It's just taxes and levies for workers that are high. Tech workers cost way less than in the US. High security for workers also means that your workers won't pull stupid stunts to keep working in your place. Unions can actually worked with and have the companies success in mind.

avh02 5y ago

Relative to a first world country, it's true, the internet is bad. But at least in Berlin, if you want (as a company) to get good internet, it's possible, there are providers such as colt that have metropolitan fiber and will literally dig trenches to connect you. On the labour and tax laws side, work life balance is a thing, presenteeism is not. Being comfortable living your actual life is important to people, and while the average person won't get exceptionally wealthy (software developers are well paid, but not exactly millionaires) they will at least enjoy their lives, along with a large portion of the rest of the population. I can't speak for other people, but career progression is still a thing, aspirations to be better at what you do is possible without a carrot and stick. Things are bureaucratic, i agree, but there is also some pragmatism to it you don't notice until you're in it.

KarlKemp 5y ago

People aren't motivated by existential dread, at least not in creative jobs. The time of the fax has passed except for specific industries like healthcare and shipping, with the latter being notorious for using fax worldwide. Employees at startups are easily 50% international. Someone willing to move to a different country has already shown more initiative and willingness to take risks and forgo the comfort of safety than the vast majority of people will ever do.