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"If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US" That's very debatable. Maybe you are taking a

"If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US" That's very debatable. Maybe you are taking all the improvements China has made in construction, manufacturing and nuclear industry, and assigning them an 'innovation value' of zero. Maybe you are assigning non-zero innovation to exploiters of gig economy like Deliveroo.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throwawaylinux 5y ago
> That's very debatable. Maybe you are taking all the improvements China has made in construction, manufacturing and nuclear industry, and assigning them an 'innovation value' of zero. I'm not. > Maybe you are assigning non-zero innovation to exploiters of gig economy like Deliveroo. Also no.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  In that case, Chinese innovation and efficiency in manufacturing alone rivals most other kinds in the world - it's truly a marvel for a country to be able to pay it's factory worker a higher wage than the average wage of several EU countries while actually doing the manufacturing at an integer fraction of the cost. That takes a massive amount of innovation that no country in the world is able to match. The value of this invention is arguably larger than the sum total of all innovation of the USA since the year 2000 in the amount of wealth it has generated.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Sure. I didn't say China has done nothing impressive (although it's emissions intensity of manufacturing and other environmental and labor rights records are horrible, which takes a some of the shine off its manufacturing for me, but that blame is equally on western governments and corporations who conspired to circumvent the environmental and labor standards demanded by their populations by farming them out to totalitarian dictatorships but that's a different story). But it's bite does not match its bark when it comes to developing and inventing new ideas and technology.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously. Nowhere in the world can match the efficiency of Chinese manufacturing. They can do more with less in a way no other country in the world can, which is the simple truth. Even countries with worse labour standards, even countries with worse environmental regulations (and there are dozens and dozens). This is simply a product of developing and inventing new ideas and technology, and using them to produce trillions and trillions of dollars of wealth. If it was simply about poor labor rights and environmental regulations they wouldn't be where there are today, as there is a large number of countries with much more permissive environments. Twenty years ago people said that it was all just because their wages are low. Now their wages are higher than several EU countries and almost all of South America, and they still are doing more with less. There is no other explanation, this is simply because they have expertise, ideas, and innovations that others countries don't or can't put into practice. The bite is absolutely matching the bark. If there really isn't much innovation and expertise there, everyone else would be doing it. The prize here is in the trillions of dollars.
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        You can't take me seriously about what? That Chinese manufacturing has very poor emissions intensity and other environmental problems, or other labor and environmental regulations? It has not been able to match other parts of the world in manufacturing when it comes to those metrics. > This is simply a product of developing and inventing new ideas and technology, "simply" (also using vast quantities of coal, poor working conditions and other air and water pollution regulations). > and using them to produce trillions and trillions of dollars of wealth. If it was simply about poor labor rights and environmental regulations they wouldn't be where there are today, I didn't say it was simple, you are the one who keeps trying to say it is simple. But they definitely achieve competitive advantages that way. > as there is a large number of countries with much more permissive environments. Non sequitur. > Twenty years ago people said that it was all just because their wages are low. Lots of people say lots of incorrect stuff all the time, not just 20 years ago. This isn't really an argument. Environmental concerns have been high on the radar for a long time. > Now their wages are higher than several EU countries and almost all of South America, and they still are doing more with less. There is no other explanation, this is simply because they have expertise, ideas, and innovations that others countries don't or can't put into practice. Their manufacturing industry overall is clearly extremely good in general. Not in all specifics (particularly high-tech sectors) like automotive, aerospace, silicon, etc etc, but as a whole of course they are major leaders in many types of manufacturing. > The bite is absolutely matching the bark. Absolutely not in terms of innovation and development of new technology and ideas across all areas.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

throwawaylinux 5y ago

> That's very debatable. Maybe you are taking all the improvements China has made in construction, manufacturing and nuclear industry, and assigning them an 'innovation value' of zero. I'm not. > Maybe you are assigning non-zero innovation to exploiters of gig economy like Deliveroo. Also no.

sudosysgen 5y ago
In that case, Chinese innovation and efficiency in manufacturing alone rivals most other kinds in the world - it's truly a marvel for a country to be able to pay it's factory worker a higher wage than the average wage of several EU countries while actually doing the manufacturing at an integer fraction of the cost. That takes a massive amount of innovation that no country in the world is able to match. The value of this invention is arguably larger than the sum total of all innovation of the USA since the year 2000 in the amount of wealth it has generated.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Sure. I didn't say China has done nothing impressive (although it's emissions intensity of manufacturing and other environmental and labor rights records are horrible, which takes a some of the shine off its manufacturing for me, but that blame is equally on western governments and corporations who conspired to circumvent the environmental and labor standards demanded by their populations by farming them out to totalitarian dictatorships but that's a different story). But it's bite does not match its bark when it comes to developing and inventing new ideas and technology.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously. Nowhere in the world can match the efficiency of Chinese manufacturing. They can do more with less in a way no other country in the world can, which is the simple truth. Even countries with worse labour standards, even countries with worse environmental regulations (and there are dozens and dozens). This is simply a product of developing and inventing new ideas and technology, and using them to produce trillions and trillions of dollars of wealth. If it was simply about poor labor rights and environmental regulations they wouldn't be where there are today, as there is a large number of countries with much more permissive environments. Twenty years ago people said that it was all just because their wages are low. Now their wages are higher than several EU countries and almost all of South America, and they still are doing more with less. There is no other explanation, this is simply because they have expertise, ideas, and innovations that others countries don't or can't put into practice. The bite is absolutely matching the bark. If there really isn't much innovation and expertise there, everyone else would be doing it. The prize here is in the trillions of dollars.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      You can't take me seriously about what? That Chinese manufacturing has very poor emissions intensity and other environmental problems, or other labor and environmental regulations? It has not been able to match other parts of the world in manufacturing when it comes to those metrics. > This is simply a product of developing and inventing new ideas and technology, "simply" (also using vast quantities of coal, poor working conditions and other air and water pollution regulations). > and using them to produce trillions and trillions of dollars of wealth. If it was simply about poor labor rights and environmental regulations they wouldn't be where there are today, I didn't say it was simple, you are the one who keeps trying to say it is simple. But they definitely achieve competitive advantages that way. > as there is a large number of countries with much more permissive environments. Non sequitur. > Twenty years ago people said that it was all just because their wages are low. Lots of people say lots of incorrect stuff all the time, not just 20 years ago. This isn't really an argument. Environmental concerns have been high on the radar for a long time. > Now their wages are higher than several EU countries and almost all of South America, and they still are doing more with less. There is no other explanation, this is simply because they have expertise, ideas, and innovations that others countries don't or can't put into practice. Their manufacturing industry overall is clearly extremely good in general. Not in all specifics (particularly high-tech sectors) like automotive, aerospace, silicon, etc etc, but as a whole of course they are major leaders in many types of manufacturing. > The bite is absolutely matching the bark. Absolutely not in terms of innovation and development of new technology and ideas across all areas.