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> we don't use mouse models because they're great models. They're just cheap, reproducible, and relatively quick to scale. Mice models don't attract many right

> we don't use mouse models because they're great models. They're just cheap, reproducible, and relatively quick to scale. Mice models don't attract many rights protesters, the way other animals would, even though they are just as sentient and intelligent as humans, dogs, cats, horses, and whales. Why don't animal rights protesters stick up for mice more? This experiment sounded like a horrific experience for the participants.

smt88 5y ago
Animal rights absolutists are certainly against animal studies and protest them. There just aren't that many of those people. For the rest of us, the horrific experiments are theoretically in the service of reducing human suffering. A hundred mice to save a human seems like a fair trade (although the real ratio is unknowable).
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  > A hundred mice to save a human seems like a fair trade What are you measuring or estimating in that calculus?
  - smt88 5y ago
    It's obviously subjective, but: - mice don't live as long as humans (a dead human is more years of lost life than a dead mouse) - mice don't mourn each other, and these mice couldn't anyway because they'll all be dead soon - in nature, mice typically die violent deaths anyway, so lab mice usually aren't suffering worse than a wild mouse would - mice don't get sick and suffer for years, becoming a burden to their family and society - mice don't fear their premature deaths for months or years I mean, I can go on and on. Knowledge of the past and future gives humans a significantly greater propensity for suffering than other animals.
    - wombatmobile 5y ago
      I see what you're saying from a human's subjective point of view. If aliens from Tralfalmadore were to adopt the same values, they might choose to experiment on humans because - humans don't live as long as Tralfalmadorians - humans don't mourn each other the same way Tralfalmadorians do, and these humans couldn't anyway because they'll all be dead soon - in nature, humans typically die violent deaths anyway, so lab humans aren't suffering worse than a wild human would - humans don't get sick and suffer for as long as Tralfalmadorians do - humans can't predict their expiry date like Tralfalmadorians can

smt88 5y ago

Animal rights absolutists are certainly against animal studies and protest them. There just aren't that many of those people. For the rest of us, the horrific experiments are theoretically in the service of reducing human suffering. A hundred mice to save a human seems like a fair trade (although the real ratio is unknowable).

wombatmobile 5y ago
> A hundred mice to save a human seems like a fair trade What are you measuring or estimating in that calculus?
- smt88 5y ago
  It's obviously subjective, but: - mice don't live as long as humans (a dead human is more years of lost life than a dead mouse) - mice don't mourn each other, and these mice couldn't anyway because they'll all be dead soon - in nature, mice typically die violent deaths anyway, so lab mice usually aren't suffering worse than a wild mouse would - mice don't get sick and suffer for years, becoming a burden to their family and society - mice don't fear their premature deaths for months or years I mean, I can go on and on. Knowledge of the past and future gives humans a significantly greater propensity for suffering than other animals.
  - wombatmobile 5y ago
    I see what you're saying from a human's subjective point of view. If aliens from Tralfalmadore were to adopt the same values, they might choose to experiment on humans because - humans don't live as long as Tralfalmadorians - humans don't mourn each other the same way Tralfalmadorians do, and these humans couldn't anyway because they'll all be dead soon - in nature, humans typically die violent deaths anyway, so lab humans aren't suffering worse than a wild human would - humans don't get sick and suffer for as long as Tralfalmadorians do - humans can't predict their expiry date like Tralfalmadorians can