6 ms·

Pronouns are merely virtue signaling acts of control. By specifying pronouns if they are obvious (99% of the time) you are signaling you are part of a non-bigot

by coolso 5y ago

Pronouns are merely virtue signaling acts of control. By specifying pronouns if they are obvious (99% of the time) you are signaling you are part of a non-bigoted, non-hateful club. Surely you don’t hate people right? So why don’t you have your pronouns visible, fellow citizen? It’s also a form of control in redefining the obvious. You want to just live your life? Nope, sorry, you need to consciously be aware of my preferred pronouns at all times. It’s a very narcissistic and attention seeking thing too.

notreallyserio 5y ago
It's just an extension of using someone's name. Is that virtue signaling, too? Or is the problem really that it's new and scary?
- coolso 5y ago
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  This. The crowd that replaced suits and ties with jeans and t-shirts are now nervous that someone is coming along to upend their status quo of culture and norms and they don't much like the idea.
  - coolso 5y ago
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      The people who fought against the changes in dress codes claimed jeans and t's had all manner of impact on the professional setting of the workplace. Is it really an imposition, when your profession includes declaring what OS you're using so you can create usable bug reports, to declare your pronouns on some form somewhere?
- pessimizer 5y ago
  I frequently use pronouns for people whose names I have no interest in knowing, so it's definitely an extension. I just think it's an onerous one.
at_a_remove 5y ago
I have been tempted to enter "bun/bunself" and show up with rabbit ears. That has made its way into the "real and valid" category.
maxsilver 5y ago
>by specifying pronouns if they are obvious (99% of the time) Except they aren't obvious 99% of the time. They aren't even "obvious" like 60% of the time. They aren't even "obvious 99% of the time" for cis-straight (non-LGBTQ) folks. "Hi, Sam Shepard will be on the call with you today, and will be joined by Alex VanBeckran and Kegan Marton" -- are these folks hoping to be addressed as men, or women, or non-binary? There's no way to tell, and it's kind of disrespectful to be wrong. > It’s also a form of control in redefining the obvious. Form of control? What on earth? It's literally just a tiny amount of human dignity. It's basically no different than being asked to address someone as "Mr. / Ms. / Mrs. / Mx." from decades prior. > Nope, sorry, you need to consciously be aware of my preferred pronouns at all times. It takes literally almost no extra effort, you just file it along with their name (or phone number, or timezone, etc). If you are thinking that hard about it, your probably doing it wrong.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  > "Hi, Sam Shepard will be on the call with you today, and will be joined by Alex VanBeckran and Kegan Marton" -- are these folks hoping to be addressed as men, or women, or non-binary? There's no way to tell, and it's kind of disrespectful to be wrong. As another commenter pointed out, in a professional setting you would ideally address these people by their proper nouns (names) and not by their pronouns. And if you're addressing more than one person, it's the gender-neutral we/they/them anyways. I'm actually struggling to think of a business scenario where using the proper pronoun would be more professional or polite than just using someone's given name.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    > I'm actually struggling to think of a business scenario where using the proper pronoun would be more professional or polite than just using someone's given name. It works at first to just always use names and theys, but the longer a conversation goes on, the more awkward little nooks and crannies you find where it sure would be convenient to have a third-person singular pronoun for referencing the thing the person just said as you expand on it or synthesizing between statements made by multiple other participants. Maybe each one individually has a solution, but the cumulative effect of these small hitches and inefficiencies does build up. Anyway, it's not impossible to make this feel natural, of course, and some people put in the work to master it. But there's a reason To Kill A Mockingbird stands out as a book that almost completely conceals the gender of its narrator and main character until about halfway through the story.
bastardoperator 5y ago
I don't know about everyone else but I've been using non-gendered pronouns my entire life. I was taught words like "they" and "them" in first or second grade. At this point I just assume anyone bothered by this is the actual narcissist.
- coolso 5y ago
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    Are you saying that anyone nonbinary should get therapy to get over the idea of being nonbinary?
  - bastardoperator 5y ago
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    > They/them is extremely unnatural in American English to refer to a singular person who you’ve seen in person. It requires mental effort and it’s just plain silly. They/them is almost always appropriate english when the gender of the person being spoken of is unknown. They only change in thinking required is to let go of the assumption that you can determine someone's gender from looking at them or reading their name.
    - coolso 5y ago
mikepurvis 5y ago
Being asked them on a form alongside other obviously-related info is a very different thing from being pressured to make them part of your Slack username or Twitter bio. Yes, there's arguments both ways that broadcasting them may be virtue-signalling, but I don't think it ever is to ask someone what theirs are, especially on something like a form.

by coolso 5y ago

notreallyserio 5y ago

It's just an extension of using someone's name. Is that virtue signaling, too? Or is the problem really that it's new and scary?

coolso 5y ago
shadowgovt 5y ago
This. The crowd that replaced suits and ties with jeans and t-shirts are now nervous that someone is coming along to upend their status quo of culture and norms and they don't much like the idea.
- coolso 5y ago
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    The people who fought against the changes in dress codes claimed jeans and t's had all manner of impact on the professional setting of the workplace. Is it really an imposition, when your profession includes declaring what OS you're using so you can create usable bug reports, to declare your pronouns on some form somewhere?
pessimizer 5y ago
I frequently use pronouns for people whose names I have no interest in knowing, so it's definitely an extension. I just think it's an onerous one.

at_a_remove 5y ago

I have been tempted to enter "bun/bunself" and show up with rabbit ears. That has made its way into the "real and valid" category.

maxsilver 5y ago

>by specifying pronouns if they are obvious (99% of the time) Except they aren't obvious 99% of the time. They aren't even "obvious" like 60% of the time. They aren't even "obvious 99% of the time" for cis-straight (non-LGBTQ) folks. "Hi, Sam Shepard will be on the call with you today, and will be joined by Alex VanBeckran and Kegan Marton" -- are these folks hoping to be addressed as men, or women, or non-binary? There's no way to tell, and it's kind of disrespectful to be wrong. > It’s also a form of control in redefining the obvious. Form of control? What on earth? It's literally just a tiny amount of human dignity. It's basically no different than being asked to address someone as "Mr. / Ms. / Mrs. / Mx." from decades prior. > Nope, sorry, you need to consciously be aware of my preferred pronouns at all times. It takes literally almost no extra effort, you just file it along with their name (or phone number, or timezone, etc). If you are thinking that hard about it, your probably doing it wrong.

AlexandrB 5y ago
> "Hi, Sam Shepard will be on the call with you today, and will be joined by Alex VanBeckran and Kegan Marton" -- are these folks hoping to be addressed as men, or women, or non-binary? There's no way to tell, and it's kind of disrespectful to be wrong. As another commenter pointed out, in a professional setting you would ideally address these people by their proper nouns (names) and not by their pronouns. And if you're addressing more than one person, it's the gender-neutral we/they/them anyways. I'm actually struggling to think of a business scenario where using the proper pronoun would be more professional or polite than just using someone's given name.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  > I'm actually struggling to think of a business scenario where using the proper pronoun would be more professional or polite than just using someone's given name. It works at first to just always use names and theys, but the longer a conversation goes on, the more awkward little nooks and crannies you find where it sure would be convenient to have a third-person singular pronoun for referencing the thing the person just said as you expand on it or synthesizing between statements made by multiple other participants. Maybe each one individually has a solution, but the cumulative effect of these small hitches and inefficiencies does build up. Anyway, it's not impossible to make this feel natural, of course, and some people put in the work to master it. But there's a reason To Kill A Mockingbird stands out as a book that almost completely conceals the gender of its narrator and main character until about halfway through the story.

bastardoperator 5y ago

I don't know about everyone else but I've been using non-gendered pronouns my entire life. I was taught words like "they" and "them" in first or second grade. At this point I just assume anyone bothered by this is the actual narcissist.

coolso 5y ago
- lazyasciiart 5y ago
  Are you saying that anyone nonbinary should get therapy to get over the idea of being nonbinary?
- bastardoperator 5y ago
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  > They/them is extremely unnatural in American English to refer to a singular person who you’ve seen in person. It requires mental effort and it’s just plain silly. They/them is almost always appropriate english when the gender of the person being spoken of is unknown. They only change in thinking required is to let go of the assumption that you can determine someone's gender from looking at them or reading their name.
  - coolso 5y ago

mikepurvis 5y ago

Being asked them on a form alongside other obviously-related info is a very different thing from being pressured to make them part of your Slack username or Twitter bio. Yes, there's arguments both ways that broadcasting them may be virtue-signalling, but I don't think it ever is to ask someone what theirs are, especially on something like a form.