5 ms·

I suspect you’re right. My personal solution to this problem, having once run a left-leaning organization that was taken over by all the things you mention, is

I suspect you’re right. My personal solution to this problem, having once run a left-leaning organization that was taken over by all the things you mention, is to learn more towards the centre. I’m curious if you’ve considered the same, especially because you describe yourself as “the left-most person in the room”?

CapitalistCartr 5y ago
In the United States the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right. In a Scandinavian Country I'd be a fairly moderate, conservative social democrat. Here, if people knew my thoughts, I'd be seen as a Wild-Eyed Radical. But given the politics in my country, I've given up compromise and actually moved further Left. And more militant, less quiet. Luckily, the organization I'm currently involved with (the SRA), while hilariously disorganized, is firmly Left.
- laszlojamf 5y ago
  I don't mean this as any kind kind of criticism, but being a swede with an American friend who was partially brought up in Sweden during the good ol days of Swedish social democracy I wonder if Americans really know what they mean when they talk about Scandinavian social democracy. These days they're a lot more conservative than they used to be. Mostly I imagine their stance on immigration control, and crime wouldn't be what Americans have in mind. Or maybe you do! All I'm saying is that it's interesting hearing it come up a lot in American discussions as if it's its own thing when really they're quite the moving target. EDIT: but i guess for you guys it might be more single-payor healthcare and reasonable taxation in which case, yeah, some things haven't changed :)
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Almost exclusively when Americans talk about Sweden being "left" they are talking about economic issues. Parental leave (480 days!) mandated by the state, single-payer healthcare, free college, huge amounts of vacation time (8+ weeks on average, 34 days by law!), assistance with childcare, etc. Compare that to the US with a mandatory rehiring after taking unpaid maternity (only) leave of up to 12 weeks, a complex healthcare system which causes people to go into debt, expensive college costing tens of thousands a semester, 0 (yes zero) vacation time by law, etc. (I should note that some states goes further than that, but it's very dependent on the state and the most liberal example might be California's generous 6-week paternity policy.) Anyone advocating any of the economic policies from Sweden I described in the US would be described in the same breath as Bernie Sanders and Fidel Castro.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  On social stuff, California is well left of Europe including Scandinavia. What you say could apply in Arkansas. For example, Danish or Norwegian immigration rules would be a perfect fit for any R president, perhaps even too strict.
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    This is reductive to the point of being incorrect. "Social stuff" includes things like maternity leave, childcare, healthcare, incarceration and drug policies. California is proud that they ended sentences of life-without-parole for children in 2017 - and replaced it with life-with-possible-parole-after-25-years, which remains far worse than Denmark permits even for the worst adult crime (life with possible parole after 12 years).
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      Fine, I meant "woke stuff" that excites Twitter so much and makes so many non-Twitterati confused and perplexed. What you mention used to be a typical left-wing agenda, but is increasingly being utterly forgotten by the younger generations of left-wing politicians.
      - jtbayly 5y ago
        Exactly. The context being the discussion of the article where that's made clear.
    - chongli 5y ago
      You must have missed the news on Chesa Boudin [1], San Francisco's district attorney. He's so far extreme left that criminals essentially have free rein in the city because his office refuses to prosecute anyone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin
- citilife 5y ago
  > In the United States the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right. I'm sorry, but what? Within the party, they've promoted universal basic income (marxisim), state healthcare, universal education, etc. It's almost completely authoritarian marxist. They're far left of most of Europe in terms of social policy (LGBTQ+ rights, abortion, drugs, etc) and economic (complete universal education, health, payments, work, etc) If that's center-left what is left, exactly?
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    Let's take the example of state healthcare. The Democratic Party talks a big game about universal healthcare at election time, but only ever proposes modest reforms (like the ACA) when it's time to craft policy. Meanwhile many (all?) European countries actually have some form of state-run or state-funded universal healthcare. The Democrat Party is only "far left" if you believe their wildest election rhetoric and don't judge them on their actions. To call them authoritarian marxist is ridiculous when they fail time and time again to reign in corporate power and are financially beholden to that same power.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > The Democratic Party talks a big game about universal healthcare at election time No, it doesn't, at least if you are talking about general elections since the failure of Clinton's reforms in the 1990s. Since then, it's talked about moderate mitigations of the problem of massive gaps in the healthcare system, or, more recently, simply about not continuing dismantling past progress on that issue.
  - disentanglement 5y ago
    Your comment calling political measures which are universally accepted across the entire range of politics in Europe (state healthcare, universal education, ...) authoritarian marxist is a hilarious example of what the top poster meant by "the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right".
    - 5y ago

CapitalistCartr 5y ago

In the United States the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right. In a Scandinavian Country I'd be a fairly moderate, conservative social democrat. Here, if people knew my thoughts, I'd be seen as a Wild-Eyed Radical. But given the politics in my country, I've given up compromise and actually moved further Left. And more militant, less quiet. Luckily, the organization I'm currently involved with (the SRA), while hilariously disorganized, is firmly Left.

laszlojamf 5y ago
I don't mean this as any kind kind of criticism, but being a swede with an American friend who was partially brought up in Sweden during the good ol days of Swedish social democracy I wonder if Americans really know what they mean when they talk about Scandinavian social democracy. These days they're a lot more conservative than they used to be. Mostly I imagine their stance on immigration control, and crime wouldn't be what Americans have in mind. Or maybe you do! All I'm saying is that it's interesting hearing it come up a lot in American discussions as if it's its own thing when really they're quite the moving target. EDIT: but i guess for you guys it might be more single-payor healthcare and reasonable taxation in which case, yeah, some things haven't changed :)
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Almost exclusively when Americans talk about Sweden being "left" they are talking about economic issues. Parental leave (480 days!) mandated by the state, single-payer healthcare, free college, huge amounts of vacation time (8+ weeks on average, 34 days by law!), assistance with childcare, etc. Compare that to the US with a mandatory rehiring after taking unpaid maternity (only) leave of up to 12 weeks, a complex healthcare system which causes people to go into debt, expensive college costing tens of thousands a semester, 0 (yes zero) vacation time by law, etc. (I should note that some states goes further than that, but it's very dependent on the state and the most liberal example might be California's generous 6-week paternity policy.) Anyone advocating any of the economic policies from Sweden I described in the US would be described in the same breath as Bernie Sanders and Fidel Castro.
inglor_cz 5y ago
On social stuff, California is well left of Europe including Scandinavia. What you say could apply in Arkansas. For example, Danish or Norwegian immigration rules would be a perfect fit for any R president, perhaps even too strict.
- lazyasciiart 5y ago
  This is reductive to the point of being incorrect. "Social stuff" includes things like maternity leave, childcare, healthcare, incarceration and drug policies. California is proud that they ended sentences of life-without-parole for children in 2017 - and replaced it with life-with-possible-parole-after-25-years, which remains far worse than Denmark permits even for the worst adult crime (life with possible parole after 12 years).
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Fine, I meant "woke stuff" that excites Twitter so much and makes so many non-Twitterati confused and perplexed. What you mention used to be a typical left-wing agenda, but is increasingly being utterly forgotten by the younger generations of left-wing politicians.
    - jtbayly 5y ago
      Exactly. The context being the discussion of the article where that's made clear.
  - chongli 5y ago
    You must have missed the news on Chesa Boudin [1], San Francisco's district attorney. He's so far extreme left that criminals essentially have free rein in the city because his office refuses to prosecute anyone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin
citilife 5y ago
> In the United States the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right. I'm sorry, but what? Within the party, they've promoted universal basic income (marxisim), state healthcare, universal education, etc. It's almost completely authoritarian marxist. They're far left of most of Europe in terms of social policy (LGBTQ+ rights, abortion, drugs, etc) and economic (complete universal education, health, payments, work, etc) If that's center-left what is left, exactly?
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  Let's take the example of state healthcare. The Democratic Party talks a big game about universal healthcare at election time, but only ever proposes modest reforms (like the ACA) when it's time to craft policy. Meanwhile many (all?) European countries actually have some form of state-run or state-funded universal healthcare. The Democrat Party is only "far left" if you believe their wildest election rhetoric and don't judge them on their actions. To call them authoritarian marxist is ridiculous when they fail time and time again to reign in corporate power and are financially beholden to that same power.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > The Democratic Party talks a big game about universal healthcare at election time No, it doesn't, at least if you are talking about general elections since the failure of Clinton's reforms in the 1990s. Since then, it's talked about moderate mitigations of the problem of massive gaps in the healthcare system, or, more recently, simply about not continuing dismantling past progress on that issue.
- disentanglement 5y ago
  Your comment calling political measures which are universally accepted across the entire range of politics in Europe (state healthcare, universal education, ...) authoritarian marxist is a hilarious example of what the top poster meant by "the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right".
  - 5y ago