6 ms·

Power Steering ECU... this things determines how the driving wheel makes the car turn. Safety issues must be considered.

bob1029 5y ago
I will never purchase a vehicle for my own purposes that does not use hydraulics for brakes and steering. Putting a computer between my foot/hands and the physics unfolding in front of me is a total non-starter.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Veritio 5y ago
  Do you consider an automatic emergency break as less reliable than it helps? Because we do have a lot of numbers on cars were there is a computer in-between. Which should indicate to me that it is safer to drive with one instead of without one. Like just yesterday (I'm driving a new car) I thought about emergency breaking automatic vs. manual and I actually feel safer knowing that the car can potentially break faster. In the brochure of my mother's potentially future car, it actually advertise emergency breaking with emergency steering to drive left or right. I also found that quite good to have as it should be able to determine much faster if it can evade and where to evade. Or do you mean this different?
  - bob1029 5y ago
    > I thought about emergency breaking automatic vs. manual and I actually feel safer knowing that the car can potentially break faster. For me, the knowledge that some other engineer designed a system that is a complete black box (from my perspective), which can arbitrarily stop my car with incredible braking force is terrifying. What happens if the emergency braking system decides to have a bug while you are exiting the freeway at 75mph?
    - l33tman 5y ago
      I do share your concern... but somehow I (perhaps naively) feel there is a big difference between regulatory mandates like emergency braking, that all manufacturers in the EU has known and planned for since more than 15 years, and stuff like Teslas FSD-beta which is a disaster to happen running on our streets.
    - martin8412 5y ago
      My concern is if the engineers were qualified and allowed to follow proper protocol for designing safety critical systems.
      - bob1029 5y ago
        Also consider the budgets these engineers have to work with now. If cars had an average unit cost measured in 7-9 figures (i.e. like a Boeing 777), I would have substantially more trust in everything involved.
        seized 5y ago
        Yeah, Boeing is a solid example of that whole large budget == safe mentality.... Maybe in 2022 exclusively.
        therealcamino 5y ago
        There's not a simple relationship between cost of the end product and the budget for developing safety-critical systems. There are only ~1600 777s ever built. The development costs for automotive systems are amortized over millions of units. I have no idea what the budgets actually are, and it's fine if you don't trust certain kinds of automation in cars. In fact my 2020 Toyota with lane-keeping assistance tried to drive me off the freeway at 80mph three times last week. (I probably should have stopped trying it after the second time, but I was kind of morbidly fascinated at that point. As it steered me firmly towards the grassy median, it also started beeping urgently to tell me that it wasn't a good idea.)
        userbinator 5y ago
- kyazawa 5y ago
  With EPAS your steering wheel still physically steers the wheel via the rack and pinion gears. With ABS and ESC, most cars on the road today have a computer involved in the braking system. It seems pretty safe.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bob1029 5y ago
    > With ABS and ESC, most cars on the road today have a computer involved in the braking system. It seems pretty safe. Absolutely. These systems have very simple feedback loops and controller algorithms. Determining that you lost traction is a simple problem to solve. Determining that a dangerous obstruction is in front of your vehicle is not. ABS/ESC also tend to have a more limited impact on the vehicle, even if they do malfunction. You can typically disable these pretty easily (pull fuse/drive system configure).
    - outworlder 5y ago
      But you did say this: > Putting a computer between my foot/hands and the physics unfolding in front of me is a total non-starter. Which ABS does, there's literally a computer in between your inputs and the 'physics'. So which is it? There was a time when ABS was not considered a simple problem. They had to invent it for the Concorde. > You can typically disable these pretty easily (pull fuse/drive system configure). If they did catastrophically malfunction, you wouldn't have time to pull fuses.
      - bob1029 5y ago
        Allow me to be more precise: I do not want to operate a vehicle wherein the exclusive means of conveying my control inputs to the final destinations is via a computer. Some limited augmentations to existing direct inputs are acceptable in my view.
        mcguire 5y ago
- jhallenworld 5y ago
  Maybe it's safer than hydraulic power steering. With electronics, there could be all kinds of self tests, for example that one of the H-bridge MOSFETs is shorted or open, akin to a valve being stuck.
  - userbinator 5y ago
    In my experience, traditional "analog" systems degrade far more gracefully and this applies to automotive too; there's usually a long period where you notice things getting worse slowly due to wear, before ultimate failure.
- userbinator 5y ago
  I am reminded of the Boeing MCAS debacle, except instead of runaway trim, you now have "runaway steering wheel", and far less time to react...
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
The guy actually doing the modding and putting his butt in the seat has far more skin in the game than anyone who's second guessing him here.
- progbits 5y ago
  Well, except you know... every pedestrian (and possibly driver) in his neighborhood. I'm being half serious - this seems harmless enough, but where do you draw the line? I'm all for the fun of reverse engineering but maybe keep that shit off public roads.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    I couldn't care less. People hacking up things are a rounding error compared to the rest of the motoring public. If your vehicle is capable of meeting the performance expectations of everyone else I don't care what you drive. If your horse and buggy, ebike conversion, etc. can do highway speed and get there within the distance of the merge lane then feel free to ride that crap on the interstate. Likewise I don't see why anyone should be disallowed from driving heavy equipment on slow city and residential streets where it can keep up.
    - wkearney99 5y ago
      ah yes, the casual arrogance of treating other people's lives as just 'rounding errors'. The only fortunate part, I suppose, is the kind of personality disorder that thinks/acts that way is likewise a rounding error.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        >ah yes, the casual arrogance of treating other people's lives as just 'rounding errors'. >The only fortunate part, I suppose, is the kind of personality disorder that thinks/acts that way is likewise a rounding error. Oh take your hand wringing and shove it. How many man hours per capita per year are spent operating sketchy modified vehicles? How many man hours per capita per year are spent driving distracted, intoxicated etc? While they are not mutually exclusive the former is clearly a rounding error compared to the latter because the slice of the population that is even in a position to engage in it is minuscule compared to the broad mass market appeal of the latter. These people are no more of a concern to society than shark bites.

bob1029 5y ago

I will never purchase a vehicle for my own purposes that does not use hydraulics for brakes and steering. Putting a computer between my foot/hands and the physics unfolding in front of me is a total non-starter.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Veritio 5y ago
Do you consider an automatic emergency break as less reliable than it helps? Because we do have a lot of numbers on cars were there is a computer in-between. Which should indicate to me that it is safer to drive with one instead of without one. Like just yesterday (I'm driving a new car) I thought about emergency breaking automatic vs. manual and I actually feel safer knowing that the car can potentially break faster. In the brochure of my mother's potentially future car, it actually advertise emergency breaking with emergency steering to drive left or right. I also found that quite good to have as it should be able to determine much faster if it can evade and where to evade. Or do you mean this different?
- bob1029 5y ago
  > I thought about emergency breaking automatic vs. manual and I actually feel safer knowing that the car can potentially break faster. For me, the knowledge that some other engineer designed a system that is a complete black box (from my perspective), which can arbitrarily stop my car with incredible braking force is terrifying. What happens if the emergency braking system decides to have a bug while you are exiting the freeway at 75mph?
  - l33tman 5y ago
    I do share your concern... but somehow I (perhaps naively) feel there is a big difference between regulatory mandates like emergency braking, that all manufacturers in the EU has known and planned for since more than 15 years, and stuff like Teslas FSD-beta which is a disaster to happen running on our streets.
  - martin8412 5y ago
    My concern is if the engineers were qualified and allowed to follow proper protocol for designing safety critical systems.
    - bob1029 5y ago
      Also consider the budgets these engineers have to work with now. If cars had an average unit cost measured in 7-9 figures (i.e. like a Boeing 777), I would have substantially more trust in everything involved.
      - seized 5y ago
        Yeah, Boeing is a solid example of that whole large budget == safe mentality.... Maybe in 2022 exclusively.
      - therealcamino 5y ago
        There's not a simple relationship between cost of the end product and the budget for developing safety-critical systems. There are only ~1600 777s ever built. The development costs for automotive systems are amortized over millions of units. I have no idea what the budgets actually are, and it's fine if you don't trust certain kinds of automation in cars. In fact my 2020 Toyota with lane-keeping assistance tried to drive me off the freeway at 80mph three times last week. (I probably should have stopped trying it after the second time, but I was kind of morbidly fascinated at that point. As it steered me firmly towards the grassy median, it also started beeping urgently to tell me that it wasn't a good idea.)
      - userbinator 5y ago
kyazawa 5y ago
With EPAS your steering wheel still physically steers the wheel via the rack and pinion gears. With ABS and ESC, most cars on the road today have a computer involved in the braking system. It seems pretty safe.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bob1029 5y ago
  > With ABS and ESC, most cars on the road today have a computer involved in the braking system. It seems pretty safe. Absolutely. These systems have very simple feedback loops and controller algorithms. Determining that you lost traction is a simple problem to solve. Determining that a dangerous obstruction is in front of your vehicle is not. ABS/ESC also tend to have a more limited impact on the vehicle, even if they do malfunction. You can typically disable these pretty easily (pull fuse/drive system configure).
  - outworlder 5y ago
    But you did say this: > Putting a computer between my foot/hands and the physics unfolding in front of me is a total non-starter. Which ABS does, there's literally a computer in between your inputs and the 'physics'. So which is it? There was a time when ABS was not considered a simple problem. They had to invent it for the Concorde. > You can typically disable these pretty easily (pull fuse/drive system configure). If they did catastrophically malfunction, you wouldn't have time to pull fuses.
    - bob1029 5y ago
      Allow me to be more precise: I do not want to operate a vehicle wherein the exclusive means of conveying my control inputs to the final destinations is via a computer. Some limited augmentations to existing direct inputs are acceptable in my view.
      - mcguire 5y ago
jhallenworld 5y ago
Maybe it's safer than hydraulic power steering. With electronics, there could be all kinds of self tests, for example that one of the H-bridge MOSFETs is shorted or open, akin to a valve being stuck.
- userbinator 5y ago
  In my experience, traditional "analog" systems degrade far more gracefully and this applies to automotive too; there's usually a long period where you notice things getting worse slowly due to wear, before ultimate failure.
userbinator 5y ago
I am reminded of the Boeing MCAS debacle, except instead of runaway trim, you now have "runaway steering wheel", and far less time to react...

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

The guy actually doing the modding and putting his butt in the seat has far more skin in the game than anyone who's second guessing him here.

progbits 5y ago
Well, except you know... every pedestrian (and possibly driver) in his neighborhood. I'm being half serious - this seems harmless enough, but where do you draw the line? I'm all for the fun of reverse engineering but maybe keep that shit off public roads.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  I couldn't care less. People hacking up things are a rounding error compared to the rest of the motoring public. If your vehicle is capable of meeting the performance expectations of everyone else I don't care what you drive. If your horse and buggy, ebike conversion, etc. can do highway speed and get there within the distance of the merge lane then feel free to ride that crap on the interstate. Likewise I don't see why anyone should be disallowed from driving heavy equipment on slow city and residential streets where it can keep up.
  - wkearney99 5y ago
    ah yes, the casual arrogance of treating other people's lives as just 'rounding errors'. The only fortunate part, I suppose, is the kind of personality disorder that thinks/acts that way is likewise a rounding error.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      >ah yes, the casual arrogance of treating other people's lives as just 'rounding errors'. >The only fortunate part, I suppose, is the kind of personality disorder that thinks/acts that way is likewise a rounding error. Oh take your hand wringing and shove it. How many man hours per capita per year are spent operating sketchy modified vehicles? How many man hours per capita per year are spent driving distracted, intoxicated etc? While they are not mutually exclusive the former is clearly a rounding error compared to the latter because the slice of the population that is even in a position to engage in it is minuscule compared to the broad mass market appeal of the latter. These people are no more of a concern to society than shark bites.