6 ms·

> normal users have no choice on the matter. The choice to not use shit software is easier than going on a strike and demanding 8h work day instead of 14h. Whi

by antocv 5y ago

> normal users have no choice on the matter. The choice to not use shit software is easier than going on a strike and demanding 8h work day instead of 14h. Which our ancestors also did, some died for the cause. I for one, do not use and have not used and especially not payed for user-hostile software, beginning since 2000. It is possible, you dont really have to accept shit or keep on using shit. Everytime that click feels wrong, that idea seems off, dont click it, close that software suite and uninstall. You do not have to accept that License.

Madmallard 5y ago
Congratulations on making a decision long before it became a serious problem for users and developing the habit. The vast majority of people are not like you. Most people succumbed to these practices over a gradual period of a decade and as such are locked-in habit-wise to this with an attention span that is hard-pressed not to focus on the matter.
bayindirh 5y ago
Let's consider a basic example: How can you justify not using Microsoft Office? Yes LibreOffice is there and works 95% of the time, but the remaining 5% are not completely useless parts of the software. It's same for most of the user-hostile software. Alternatives are not as intuitive, easy to use, or easy to find. Also, free software is not guaranteed to be sustained or be in front of the pack. I use Linux, and free software to the most extent I can use, but there are some closed source stuff which is expensive but is soundly ahead when compared to open source alternatives. I can break the sweat and write a similar code, but how can I make sure that it's sustained when it has a A/GPLv3 license?
- antocv 5y ago
  > How can you justify not using Microsoft Office? I never had to justify it, nobody forced me or expected me to be using Office, they expected me to deliver a thesis or other document. When there was the "5% expectation", kindly decline, uninstall. The road I picked, was not always success or easy, I got failed in high school "informatics" class because I could not show that I could use Office. Twice. I refused to learn Office because I had already learned to produce documents and presentations (websites) with a computer using free open source software. > Alternatives are not as intuitive, easy to use, or easy to find. Whats ease is what you have learned. Had you began with Linux since 1999 you would not even know how to do anything on Windows or MacOSX. I literlaly cant even scroll or type on a collegues macbook or find my way around anything. Very hard to use, not intuitive. The "easy to use intuitive" eventually becomes the dark UX hell it is today, a slow descent. If you accept the software will think for you, well it will. Now you dont have to think, youre not in control, just enjoy the UX dark patterns and ads.
  - bayindirh 5y ago
    > I never had to justify it, nobody forced me or expected me to be using Office... You had it easy it seems. When someone sends you a document which contains convoluted structures and only renders in a very recent version of Microsoft Word, and you have to fill it for work purposes, you have no other choice (We're a Linux shop, but not everyone we interact uses Libre Office, so yeah). > Whats ease is what you have learned. Had you began with Linux since 1999 you would not even know how to do anything on Windows or MacOSX. I started with a C64 in 1989, jumped to a 486 some years later and installed Linux in 1998, when there was no documentation, and dial-up was kinda hard without any. So I double booted Linux and Windows for a lot of years, and despised Windows since Windows 95. However, I can use all three without problems, making all other ecosystems work with my Linux systems (I adapt them to talk with Linux, not vice versa). > The "easy to use intuitive" eventually becomes the dark UX hell it is today, a slow descent. No, it's not. Automatically adding another bullet point is not. Marking the center of a shape and snapping to it is not. Having sensible defaults and intuitive key bindings are not dark patterns. Also fixing bugs in two days, getting direct replies from developers, your feedback taken seriously are not dark patterns. The bitter part is they can be all done in FOSS, very easily (I've developed such software for some projects, and it's well loved), but developers are not motivated or bothered by it.
    - antocv 5y ago
      > you have no other choice You always, always have a choice. Throw away the victim and obey mentality. Freedom is taken, not served to you. When someone send you a trojan horse.virus.exe you do not have to open it. Neither do you have to open a convoluted proprietary binary format requiring you to buy a license to read said binary. Politely decline, reject. You have that power.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - necovek 5y ago
        You are both right and wrong at the same time. You demonstrate it yourself. You say how you've failed informatics classes for failing to pass MS Office test. If that's not "forced", I don't know what is. There are many battles worth fighting when it comes to freedom, and choosing to fail a test to demonstrate freedom is quite admirable. And quite silly. I've done things like that too, and I am fully aware that they can be both. They make for good stories too. Similarly, I could choose not to use Windows to file my taxes when the country has switched to obligatory online-filing and only provides Windows software: I am not "forced", but I could be liable for heavy tax fines if I don't do it. Or I could reverse engineer the code and develop tooling that works on free software. I could possibly even get that marked unconstitutional if I am willing to put a long fight in court (and spend a lot of money on legal representation too). Nowhere does it say in our constitution that I've got to use Windows to be a citizen. Where we draw the line and what's the effort we are willing to expel to fight against the tide is each individual's prerogative. We do need people to fight against the tide. But it's not wrong for anyone not to, because there are other things worth fighting for too! And some simply need to survive.
- christophilus 5y ago
  I haven’t used Microsoft Office in a decade, at least. It’s totally possible.
  - bayindirh 5y ago
    I'm not using it either for personal purposes for more than a decade, but sometimes life gives you lemons at the office (the literal one), so you need to work with something you don't like for a bit. The point I'm trying to make is, if you're exchanging files and doing collaborative work, you don't have all the freedom to do whatever you want to do.
- kortilla 5y ago
  > Let's consider a basic example: How can you justify not using Microsoft Office? Easy. I don’t want to give Microsoft money and libreoffice/notes are fine for all of the basic use cases.
  - bayindirh 5y ago
    > ...fine for all of the basic use cases. What if some business partner sends you a completely loaded Office document to fill/work together/whatnot?
    - antocv 5y ago
      It has happened, I declined. Many worked with LibreOffice with me, those who did not, my career took a different route than working with them.
- croes 5y ago
  How many people use that "remaining 5%"? Most people I know still use spacebar to right aline the date in a word document.
  - bayindirh 5y ago
    For my case, if we're getting a Office document, it's almost guaranteed to break when opened with latest LibreOffice. We don't handle these files everyday, but it's a necessity. If the data inside a file can be transported with something FOSS, it's already carried with that software. So, in my case, at least; I'd rather do my research and create more GPL software rather than trying to convince established companies to switch to LibreOffice.
    - croes 5y ago
      >For my case, if we're getting a Office document, it's almost guaranteed to break when opened with latest LibreOffice. That even could happen in MS Office. MS needed several major versions until they fully followed their own Office Open XML standard.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  > Also, free software is not guaranteed to be sustained or be in front of the pack Nor is commercial software. In fact it's more likely than free software to become abandonware.
thizzbuzz 5y ago

by antocv 5y ago

Madmallard 5y ago

Congratulations on making a decision long before it became a serious problem for users and developing the habit. The vast majority of people are not like you. Most people succumbed to these practices over a gradual period of a decade and as such are locked-in habit-wise to this with an attention span that is hard-pressed not to focus on the matter.

bayindirh 5y ago

Let's consider a basic example: How can you justify not using Microsoft Office? Yes LibreOffice is there and works 95% of the time, but the remaining 5% are not completely useless parts of the software. It's same for most of the user-hostile software. Alternatives are not as intuitive, easy to use, or easy to find. Also, free software is not guaranteed to be sustained or be in front of the pack. I use Linux, and free software to the most extent I can use, but there are some closed source stuff which is expensive but is soundly ahead when compared to open source alternatives. I can break the sweat and write a similar code, but how can I make sure that it's sustained when it has a A/GPLv3 license?

antocv 5y ago
> How can you justify not using Microsoft Office? I never had to justify it, nobody forced me or expected me to be using Office, they expected me to deliver a thesis or other document. When there was the "5% expectation", kindly decline, uninstall. The road I picked, was not always success or easy, I got failed in high school "informatics" class because I could not show that I could use Office. Twice. I refused to learn Office because I had already learned to produce documents and presentations (websites) with a computer using free open source software. > Alternatives are not as intuitive, easy to use, or easy to find. Whats ease is what you have learned. Had you began with Linux since 1999 you would not even know how to do anything on Windows or MacOSX. I literlaly cant even scroll or type on a collegues macbook or find my way around anything. Very hard to use, not intuitive. The "easy to use intuitive" eventually becomes the dark UX hell it is today, a slow descent. If you accept the software will think for you, well it will. Now you dont have to think, youre not in control, just enjoy the UX dark patterns and ads.
- bayindirh 5y ago
  > I never had to justify it, nobody forced me or expected me to be using Office... You had it easy it seems. When someone sends you a document which contains convoluted structures and only renders in a very recent version of Microsoft Word, and you have to fill it for work purposes, you have no other choice (We're a Linux shop, but not everyone we interact uses Libre Office, so yeah). > Whats ease is what you have learned. Had you began with Linux since 1999 you would not even know how to do anything on Windows or MacOSX. I started with a C64 in 1989, jumped to a 486 some years later and installed Linux in 1998, when there was no documentation, and dial-up was kinda hard without any. So I double booted Linux and Windows for a lot of years, and despised Windows since Windows 95. However, I can use all three without problems, making all other ecosystems work with my Linux systems (I adapt them to talk with Linux, not vice versa). > The "easy to use intuitive" eventually becomes the dark UX hell it is today, a slow descent. No, it's not. Automatically adding another bullet point is not. Marking the center of a shape and snapping to it is not. Having sensible defaults and intuitive key bindings are not dark patterns. Also fixing bugs in two days, getting direct replies from developers, your feedback taken seriously are not dark patterns. The bitter part is they can be all done in FOSS, very easily (I've developed such software for some projects, and it's well loved), but developers are not motivated or bothered by it.
  - antocv 5y ago
    > you have no other choice You always, always have a choice. Throw away the victim and obey mentality. Freedom is taken, not served to you. When someone send you a trojan horse.virus.exe you do not have to open it. Neither do you have to open a convoluted proprietary binary format requiring you to buy a license to read said binary. Politely decline, reject. You have that power.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - necovek 5y ago
      You are both right and wrong at the same time. You demonstrate it yourself. You say how you've failed informatics classes for failing to pass MS Office test. If that's not "forced", I don't know what is. There are many battles worth fighting when it comes to freedom, and choosing to fail a test to demonstrate freedom is quite admirable. And quite silly. I've done things like that too, and I am fully aware that they can be both. They make for good stories too. Similarly, I could choose not to use Windows to file my taxes when the country has switched to obligatory online-filing and only provides Windows software: I am not "forced", but I could be liable for heavy tax fines if I don't do it. Or I could reverse engineer the code and develop tooling that works on free software. I could possibly even get that marked unconstitutional if I am willing to put a long fight in court (and spend a lot of money on legal representation too). Nowhere does it say in our constitution that I've got to use Windows to be a citizen. Where we draw the line and what's the effort we are willing to expel to fight against the tide is each individual's prerogative. We do need people to fight against the tide. But it's not wrong for anyone not to, because there are other things worth fighting for too! And some simply need to survive.
christophilus 5y ago
I haven’t used Microsoft Office in a decade, at least. It’s totally possible.
- bayindirh 5y ago
  I'm not using it either for personal purposes for more than a decade, but sometimes life gives you lemons at the office (the literal one), so you need to work with something you don't like for a bit. The point I'm trying to make is, if you're exchanging files and doing collaborative work, you don't have all the freedom to do whatever you want to do.
kortilla 5y ago
> Let's consider a basic example: How can you justify not using Microsoft Office? Easy. I don’t want to give Microsoft money and libreoffice/notes are fine for all of the basic use cases.
- bayindirh 5y ago
  > ...fine for all of the basic use cases. What if some business partner sends you a completely loaded Office document to fill/work together/whatnot?
  - antocv 5y ago
    It has happened, I declined. Many worked with LibreOffice with me, those who did not, my career took a different route than working with them.
croes 5y ago
How many people use that "remaining 5%"? Most people I know still use spacebar to right aline the date in a word document.
- bayindirh 5y ago
  For my case, if we're getting a Office document, it's almost guaranteed to break when opened with latest LibreOffice. We don't handle these files everyday, but it's a necessity. If the data inside a file can be transported with something FOSS, it's already carried with that software. So, in my case, at least; I'd rather do my research and create more GPL software rather than trying to convince established companies to switch to LibreOffice.
  - croes 5y ago
    >For my case, if we're getting a Office document, it's almost guaranteed to break when opened with latest LibreOffice. That even could happen in MS Office. MS needed several major versions until they fully followed their own Office Open XML standard.
denton-scratch 5y ago
> Also, free software is not guaranteed to be sustained or be in front of the pack Nor is commercial software. In fact it's more likely than free software to become abandonware.

thizzbuzz 5y ago