10 ms·

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. This is an intensely user hostile view point, ironically enough. "The dark

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. This is an intensely user hostile view point, ironically enough. "The dark patterns being foisted upon the average user are their own fault, they deserve what they get" In fact, I think this attitude is how the developers and product managers responsible for this stuff sleep at night, "these people deserve this for their moral failings, so what I'm doing doesn't make me a terrible person" How would my mom switch from her crappy bank app? That app that the bank is kind of forcing her to use by making the in person experience so terrible and, well, because of COVID. There is only one bank in her town, I guess she could start driving "to the city" for banking but, surprise, all those banks have equally shitty apps. She could switch from Facebook to ... what exactly? Her extended family are all on Facebook, her grandkids are posting pics of the great grandkids on Facebook. Yeah, she deserves the disaster that is Facebook.

antocv 5y ago
Ironically the "my mom" and "but my grandparents" angle is what has always been used to dumb down and introduce user-hostile patterns. Surprise, after 20 years the developers and managers assume they are building software for retarded un-learnable "grandparents and mothers", the end result is well stupid software.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  If your user base is large enough, some significant faction of your users are in fact “retarded un-learnable,” though I might have put it more delicately. And when there’s money involved, there’s always incentive to cater to your lowest common denominator user. I’ve watched many in-person and remote use testing sessions, some people just have no clue how to use technology, yet you still have to design apps and websites for them to use. These people aren’t necessarily dumb or anything like that, they just don’t understand technology.
- AstralStorm 5y ago
  Most of the dark patterns are not due to dumbing down UI. They're either because nothing better is available (security), income would be reduced (ads, cookie warnings, software is deliberately crippled for non-professional versions), development is done by lowest bidder.
  - ratww 5y ago
    Yeah. It would actually be pretty cool if web sites and apps were dumbed down for a few things: denying cookies, deleting accounts, contacting support, unsubscribing from spam. With dark patterns those things actually become more complicated.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  > Ironically the "my mom" and "but my grandparents" angle is what has always been used to dumb down and introduce user-hostile patterns. Dumbed down and user-hostile are independent things. Dark patterns are being introduced for nefarious purposes. No one is explaining away things like "click to subscribe, wait 3 hours in a phone queue to unsubscribe" as required for "grandmothers" The software isn't stupid, it's intentionally and cleverly manipulative and user hostile.
  - antocv 5y ago
    > hard wait time to unsubscribe It really is the grandmother excuse "you the user dont know what the unsubscribe button is doing, so we ask you to wait 3h and confirm 4 times because maybe you are clicking by mistake since you dont know where and what you are clicking".
    - layer8 5y ago
      No, it’s because it was A/B-tested with the result that the pattern retains more subscribers, which is good for KPI if not for the business.
      - pbronez 5y ago
        This particular pattern is so dark that the FTC is cracking down on it[0]: Under the enforcement policy statement issued today, businesses must follow three key requirements or be subject to law enforcement action, including potential civil penalties: Disclose clearly and conspicuously all material terms of the product or service, including how much it costs, deadlines by which the consumer must act to stop further charges, the amount and frequency of such charges, how to cancel, and information about the product or service itself that is needed to stop consumers from being deceived about the characteristics of the product or service. The statement provides detail on what clear and conspicuous means, particularly noting that the information must be provided upfront when the consumer first sees the offer and generally as prominent as the deal offer itself. Obtain the consumer’s express informed consent before charging them for a product or services. This includes obtaining the consumer’s acceptance of the negative option feature separately from other portions of the entire transaction, not including information that interferes with, detracts from, contradicts, or otherwise undermines the consumer’s ability to provide their express informed consent. Provide easy and simple cancellation to the consumer. Marketers should provide cancellation mechanisms that are at least as easy to use as the method the consumer used to buy the product or service in the first place. [0] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-ramp-enforcement-against-illegal-dark-patterns-trick-or-trap https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-r...
ratww 5y ago
I don't think anyone is directly blaming the users here. It is just a fact of life that a sizeable portion of users "accept" dark patterns, and PMs consider that as a sign of success. However I strongly doubt users are doing it by choice. IMO it's actually because of lack of choices, lack of knowledge or learned helplessness. That might be controversial, but to me the point is that A/B tests and KPIs are the wrong incentives, not that users are stupid.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  > I don't think anyone is directly blaming the users here. The comment I'm replying to is LITERALLY blaming "normal users" for these problems.
  - ratww 5y ago
    I said "directly" blaming, very important distinction. The people making the garbage is still the ones to blame for the garbage itself. The reason people make such garbage is because a subset of people accept it. But nobody is saying the people accepting it are doing it out of an evilness (maybe they're saying it's out of "dumbness", but I would disagree with that too).
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    someone can say that people are allowing themselves to be victimized, without saying that the people doing the victimizing are in the right. The comment however is wrong in that it is perhaps not possible for the users to keep themselves from being victimized, without some recourse to the law.
  - wott 5y ago
    Normal users, as they represent by definition the largest numbers, are necessary to enable the network effects on which the Internet companies rely, and as a result they also put other, reluctant users in a position of minority, the position of the 'unreasonable', the position of the grumpy old fart, the position of the burden to support. The mass, thus the normal user, is indeed the enabler.
amznbyebyebye 5y ago
> Her extended family are all on Facebook, her grandkids are posting pics of the great grandkids on Facebook. Yeah, she deserves the disaster that is Facebook. We use WhatsApp groups for this now. It’s perfect, no ads, only the content from people I want content from. No slimy Facebook algorithm. Between tiktok Instagram and whatsapp how is Facebook.com even still a thing?
- helloworld11 5y ago
  Yet, Whatsapp belongs to Facebook... And I won't hinge my bets on it staying better for the long run given the shittiness of the original product in so many ways.
wruza 5y ago
The root of the issue is they never complain, even when cornered into a shitty bank or govt app. Everything else just grows from this fact. They are used to commercials, spam, telemarketers, scammers, pre-checked boxes when the law allows to uncheck it and demand the same service. There is no revolt. If you don’t take responsibility for change, it doesn’t happen.
- hattori31 5y ago
  Complain how? In older times we could just mail the company now the support page has stupid chat bots that do nothing, and you have to fight with it or the damn page for 5 mins before you can send a mail. Most of the times I just give up. And if we complain for every site takes too much time. And it will boil down to "sure sir, but thata how it is"

antocv 5y ago

Ironically the "my mom" and "but my grandparents" angle is what has always been used to dumb down and introduce user-hostile patterns. Surprise, after 20 years the developers and managers assume they are building software for retarded un-learnable "grandparents and mothers", the end result is well stupid software.

nkrisc 5y ago
If your user base is large enough, some significant faction of your users are in fact “retarded un-learnable,” though I might have put it more delicately. And when there’s money involved, there’s always incentive to cater to your lowest common denominator user. I’ve watched many in-person and remote use testing sessions, some people just have no clue how to use technology, yet you still have to design apps and websites for them to use. These people aren’t necessarily dumb or anything like that, they just don’t understand technology.
AstralStorm 5y ago
Most of the dark patterns are not due to dumbing down UI. They're either because nothing better is available (security), income would be reduced (ads, cookie warnings, software is deliberately crippled for non-professional versions), development is done by lowest bidder.
- ratww 5y ago
  Yeah. It would actually be pretty cool if web sites and apps were dumbed down for a few things: denying cookies, deleting accounts, contacting support, unsubscribing from spam. With dark patterns those things actually become more complicated.
Ensorceled 5y ago
> Ironically the "my mom" and "but my grandparents" angle is what has always been used to dumb down and introduce user-hostile patterns. Dumbed down and user-hostile are independent things. Dark patterns are being introduced for nefarious purposes. No one is explaining away things like "click to subscribe, wait 3 hours in a phone queue to unsubscribe" as required for "grandmothers" The software isn't stupid, it's intentionally and cleverly manipulative and user hostile.
- antocv 5y ago
  > hard wait time to unsubscribe It really is the grandmother excuse "you the user dont know what the unsubscribe button is doing, so we ask you to wait 3h and confirm 4 times because maybe you are clicking by mistake since you dont know where and what you are clicking".
  - layer8 5y ago
    No, it’s because it was A/B-tested with the result that the pattern retains more subscribers, which is good for KPI if not for the business.
    - pbronez 5y ago
      This particular pattern is so dark that the FTC is cracking down on it[0]: Under the enforcement policy statement issued today, businesses must follow three key requirements or be subject to law enforcement action, including potential civil penalties: Disclose clearly and conspicuously all material terms of the product or service, including how much it costs, deadlines by which the consumer must act to stop further charges, the amount and frequency of such charges, how to cancel, and information about the product or service itself that is needed to stop consumers from being deceived about the characteristics of the product or service. The statement provides detail on what clear and conspicuous means, particularly noting that the information must be provided upfront when the consumer first sees the offer and generally as prominent as the deal offer itself. Obtain the consumer’s express informed consent before charging them for a product or services. This includes obtaining the consumer’s acceptance of the negative option feature separately from other portions of the entire transaction, not including information that interferes with, detracts from, contradicts, or otherwise undermines the consumer’s ability to provide their express informed consent. Provide easy and simple cancellation to the consumer. Marketers should provide cancellation mechanisms that are at least as easy to use as the method the consumer used to buy the product or service in the first place. [0] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-ramp-enforcement-against-illegal-dark-patterns-trick-or-trap https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-r...

ratww 5y ago

I don't think anyone is directly blaming the users here. It is just a fact of life that a sizeable portion of users "accept" dark patterns, and PMs consider that as a sign of success. However I strongly doubt users are doing it by choice. IMO it's actually because of lack of choices, lack of knowledge or learned helplessness. That might be controversial, but to me the point is that A/B tests and KPIs are the wrong incentives, not that users are stupid.

Ensorceled 5y ago
> I don't think anyone is directly blaming the users here. The comment I'm replying to is LITERALLY blaming "normal users" for these problems.
- ratww 5y ago
  I said "directly" blaming, very important distinction. The people making the garbage is still the ones to blame for the garbage itself. The reason people make such garbage is because a subset of people accept it. But nobody is saying the people accepting it are doing it out of an evilness (maybe they're saying it's out of "dumbness", but I would disagree with that too).
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  someone can say that people are allowing themselves to be victimized, without saying that the people doing the victimizing are in the right. The comment however is wrong in that it is perhaps not possible for the users to keep themselves from being victimized, without some recourse to the law.
- wott 5y ago
  Normal users, as they represent by definition the largest numbers, are necessary to enable the network effects on which the Internet companies rely, and as a result they also put other, reluctant users in a position of minority, the position of the 'unreasonable', the position of the grumpy old fart, the position of the burden to support. The mass, thus the normal user, is indeed the enabler.

amznbyebyebye 5y ago

> Her extended family are all on Facebook, her grandkids are posting pics of the great grandkids on Facebook. Yeah, she deserves the disaster that is Facebook. We use WhatsApp groups for this now. It’s perfect, no ads, only the content from people I want content from. No slimy Facebook algorithm. Between tiktok Instagram and whatsapp how is Facebook.com even still a thing?

helloworld11 5y ago
Yet, Whatsapp belongs to Facebook... And I won't hinge my bets on it staying better for the long run given the shittiness of the original product in so many ways.

wruza 5y ago

The root of the issue is they never complain, even when cornered into a shitty bank or govt app. Everything else just grows from this fact. They are used to commercials, spam, telemarketers, scammers, pre-checked boxes when the law allows to uncheck it and demand the same service. There is no revolt. If you don’t take responsibility for change, it doesn’t happen.

hattori31 5y ago
Complain how? In older times we could just mail the company now the support page has stupid chat bots that do nothing, and you have to fight with it or the damn page for 5 mins before you can send a mail. Most of the times I just give up. And if we complain for every site takes too much time. And it will boil down to "sure sir, but thata how it is"