4 ms·

Please explain to me what you find wrong with blacklist. I'm dying to know.

HumanReadable 5y ago
it's less clear to non-native English speakers what the hell a blacklist is than what a deny-list is. EDIT: the replies I received to this comment are pretty shocking to me. I'm not arguing for the removal of anything, I am only listing one issue with blacklist that deny-list doesn't have. Anything you're reading into my comment beyond that is your tribal identity projecting its insecurity.
- ogogmad 5y ago
  1. By this logic, we should abandon most words in the English language, because non-native speakers might otherwise need to learn them. Somehow though, you've applied this logic only to the word "blacklist". And why should a language with its own literature and history abandon its own vocabulary? 2. The usual reason given for not saying "blacklist" is because of supposed racism. Your argument is a new one, and seems to have been produced post-facto. Your comment is sophistry. [edit] Removed some scathing remarks.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    Even if the readability argument was created after the fact, it still stands. It’s immediately clear what an “allow-list” means.
    - ogogmad 5y ago
      By that logic, we'll have to give up most words in English. This is entitled to the extreme. You have been arguing with me for the sake of arguing.
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        Not really. English remains the most spoken language in our circles and it's immensely helpful because of that. What we can all do is to look for better names. Master/slave can be replaced by primary/replica, publisher/subscriber and a lot of others that offer narrower meanings and, therefore, are better names.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        major--neither 5y ago
        do you seriously not understand what you're doing?
  - HumanReadable 5y ago
    The comment asked for things wrong with the word blacklist. I replied with a reason. I'm not arguing for the removal of the word, I don't know why you think I am.
  - major--neither 5y ago
    > [edit] Removed some scathing remarks. you mean you white-washed some remarks? aha! ;)
- IlliOnato 5y ago
  I'm a non-native English speaker, and I must say that you are wrong. Even forgetting that many languages have exactly the same construction ("black list") with the same meaning, the thing you do as a non-native speaker with an unfamiliar word is to look it up in a dictionary, or guess its meaning from the context, not try and run some inverse etimology on it. I mean, for years I understood what "paste" meant (as in "copy and paste") and used that word without having any idea about "paste" being some sort of glue. I still have no idea where the word "parkway" comes from, but understand the word and use it. (If I were to guess from its parts I would arrive to something like a "garden path":))
  - HumanReadable 5y ago
    I didn't claim we should remove the world blacklist. The comment I was responding asked for things I find wrong with blacklist, I replied with one.
- esarbe 5y ago
  Not sure I buy that argument. In German they have the "Schwarze Liste" which essentially means. German is pretty close to English though, so I guess your argument could still hold for other non-related languages.
maximus-decimus 5y ago
whitelist = good allowed things blacklist = bad, forbidden things => white = good black = bad Associating something being black with it being bad/lesser/evil is problematic if you're trying to get rid of racism toward black people.
- ogogmad 5y ago
  White is good because it's the colour of natural light. Black is bad because it's the colour of darkness, which is dangerous because you can't see. Children are afraid of the dark. The fact that people's skin colour is sometimes described as white or black is a coincidence that doesn't relate to the origin of the word blacklist. If people are offended by coincidences like this, it means that we won't be able to speak Spanish, Russian or Chinese. The Russian word for black (as in a black person) is negr; but note that this is not considered offensive in Russian.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    > White is good because it's the colour of natural light. In a post about a world flag someone mentioned that, for the Chinese, white is associated with death.
    - ogogmad 5y ago
      You've fixated on a minor detail. The origin of the word "blacklist" is described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_te... It has never had anything to do with race. If we can't say certain words because of linguistic coincidences, then we won't be able to speak Spanish. In all your responses to me, you have been arguing for the sake of arguing.
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        The origin is irrelevant if it's found offensive. If you tell me what I'm doing offends you, I'll try to change my behavior.

it's less clear to non-native English speakers what the hell a blacklist is than what a deny-list is. EDIT: the replies I received to this comment are pretty shocking to me. I'm not arguing for the removal of anything, I am only listing one issue with blacklist that deny-list doesn't have. Anything you're reading into my comment beyond that is your tribal identity projecting its insecurity.

ogogmad 5y ago
1. By this logic, we should abandon most words in the English language, because non-native speakers might otherwise need to learn them. Somehow though, you've applied this logic only to the word "blacklist". And why should a language with its own literature and history abandon its own vocabulary? 2. The usual reason given for not saying "blacklist" is because of supposed racism. Your argument is a new one, and seems to have been produced post-facto. Your comment is sophistry. [edit] Removed some scathing remarks.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  Even if the readability argument was created after the fact, it still stands. It’s immediately clear what an “allow-list” means.
  - ogogmad 5y ago
    By that logic, we'll have to give up most words in English. This is entitled to the extreme. You have been arguing with me for the sake of arguing.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      Not really. English remains the most spoken language in our circles and it's immensely helpful because of that. What we can all do is to look for better names. Master/slave can be replaced by primary/replica, publisher/subscriber and a lot of others that offer narrower meanings and, therefore, are better names.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - major--neither 5y ago
        do you seriously not understand what you're doing?
- HumanReadable 5y ago
  The comment asked for things wrong with the word blacklist. I replied with a reason. I'm not arguing for the removal of the word, I don't know why you think I am.
- major--neither 5y ago
  > [edit] Removed some scathing remarks. you mean you white-washed some remarks? aha! ;)
IlliOnato 5y ago
I'm a non-native English speaker, and I must say that you are wrong. Even forgetting that many languages have exactly the same construction ("black list") with the same meaning, the thing you do as a non-native speaker with an unfamiliar word is to look it up in a dictionary, or guess its meaning from the context, not try and run some inverse etimology on it. I mean, for years I understood what "paste" meant (as in "copy and paste") and used that word without having any idea about "paste" being some sort of glue. I still have no idea where the word "parkway" comes from, but understand the word and use it. (If I were to guess from its parts I would arrive to something like a "garden path":))
- HumanReadable 5y ago
  I didn't claim we should remove the world blacklist. The comment I was responding asked for things I find wrong with blacklist, I replied with one.
esarbe 5y ago
Not sure I buy that argument. In German they have the "Schwarze Liste" which essentially means. German is pretty close to English though, so I guess your argument could still hold for other non-related languages.

maximus-decimus 5y ago

whitelist = good allowed things blacklist = bad, forbidden things => white = good black = bad Associating something being black with it being bad/lesser/evil is problematic if you're trying to get rid of racism toward black people.

ogogmad 5y ago
White is good because it's the colour of natural light. Black is bad because it's the colour of darkness, which is dangerous because you can't see. Children are afraid of the dark. The fact that people's skin colour is sometimes described as white or black is a coincidence that doesn't relate to the origin of the word blacklist. If people are offended by coincidences like this, it means that we won't be able to speak Spanish, Russian or Chinese. The Russian word for black (as in a black person) is negr; but note that this is not considered offensive in Russian.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  > White is good because it's the colour of natural light. In a post about a world flag someone mentioned that, for the Chinese, white is associated with death.
  - ogogmad 5y ago
    You've fixated on a minor detail. The origin of the word "blacklist" is described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_te... It has never had anything to do with race. If we can't say certain words because of linguistic coincidences, then we won't be able to speak Spanish. In all your responses to me, you have been arguing for the sake of arguing.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      The origin is irrelevant if it's found offensive. If you tell me what I'm doing offends you, I'll try to change my behavior.