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People need to be taught to read code and not only write it. I feel like a lot of problems start with people seeing more than 100 lines then saying "fuck it" th

People need to be taught to read code and not only write it. I feel like a lot of problems start with people seeing more than 100 lines then saying "fuck it" then start clamoring to remove technical debt by adopting something new or even an writing an entire new code base. Reading code is fun and it's a skill that took me time to develop. People need to told that's a skill you need and yes (shock) not emphasize creativity as much as we do. Creativity is great but it has enough encouragement in society already. We need people willing to read what already exists as well.

voakbasda 5y ago
The problem is that most code is utter shit. If you just read shit code and do nothing, you have made a choice to preserve the status quo. At that point, you have become part of the problem.
- softawre 5y ago
  Lots of developers (especially newer ones) seem to think code is "utter shit" when it really is written that way for a reason. At least I've seen this pattern many times, and used to do it myself decades ago.
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    Despite the implication otherwise, I have been a software engineer for 30 years. This is speaking as an active consultant in the embedded space. There is shit code everywhere, in nearly every single system. Some code may be "written that way for a reason", but it can simultaneously be utter shit. Working shit, but still shit.
    - Ericson2314 5y ago
      Yeah I am a big believer in https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... If you do a from-scratch rewrite, you could stay in igorance and might make those mistakes. But if you do a refactor, especially one broken up into many steps like this Linux one, it in fact demonstrates a better understanding the existing code and any nuance than merely leaving it in place! Not touching scary-looking code is just bad, and not a wise form of humility.
colejohnson66 5y ago
Refactoring isn’t rewriting for the hell of it. Maybe some do that, but the majority of the time, it’s to make things clearer, allow for better abstractions, etc. Letting cruft build up because you think rewriting is wrong is how you get technical debt.
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  Yeah I think the "fuck it" crowd just adds new code and doesn't touch existing code. That or they advocate doing a from-scratch rewrite.
pvorb 5y ago
I think that refactoring is often used as a means to better understand code. This might be your own code that you wrote yesterday or it might be someone else's code from 3 years ago. In order to really understand a piece of code, some of us need to put their hands on it. But I think throwing away the changes should be an option if there's no objective improvement. Very often those changes end up on the main branch but they only cause changes, not improvements. The real outcome is in someone's head.

voakbasda 5y ago

The problem is that most code is utter shit. If you just read shit code and do nothing, you have made a choice to preserve the status quo. At that point, you have become part of the problem.

softawre 5y ago
Lots of developers (especially newer ones) seem to think code is "utter shit" when it really is written that way for a reason. At least I've seen this pattern many times, and used to do it myself decades ago.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  Despite the implication otherwise, I have been a software engineer for 30 years. This is speaking as an active consultant in the embedded space. There is shit code everywhere, in nearly every single system. Some code may be "written that way for a reason", but it can simultaneously be utter shit. Working shit, but still shit.
  - Ericson2314 5y ago
    Yeah I am a big believer in https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... If you do a from-scratch rewrite, you could stay in igorance and might make those mistakes. But if you do a refactor, especially one broken up into many steps like this Linux one, it in fact demonstrates a better understanding the existing code and any nuance than merely leaving it in place! Not touching scary-looking code is just bad, and not a wise form of humility.

colejohnson66 5y ago

Refactoring isn’t rewriting for the hell of it. Maybe some do that, but the majority of the time, it’s to make things clearer, allow for better abstractions, etc. Letting cruft build up because you think rewriting is wrong is how you get technical debt.

Ericson2314 5y ago
Yeah I think the "fuck it" crowd just adds new code and doesn't touch existing code. That or they advocate doing a from-scratch rewrite.

pvorb 5y ago

I think that refactoring is often used as a means to better understand code. This might be your own code that you wrote yesterday or it might be someone else's code from 3 years ago. In order to really understand a piece of code, some of us need to put their hands on it. But I think throwing away the changes should be an option if there's no objective improvement. Very often those changes end up on the main branch but they only cause changes, not improvements. The real outcome is in someone's head.