6 ms·

It’s ridiculously obvious when people have seen the question before. The way we do it is like this: we have like 3 or 4 different small variations on each ques

It’s ridiculously obvious when people have seen the question before. The way we do it is like this: we have like 3 or 4 different small variations on each question. Such that the solution is measurably different, in quite telling ways, but that the given problem looks almost identical. In one specific case the given is identical, but there are 3 variations to the question based on how the candidate asks questions about it (if they don’t ask questions the question is not possible to solve as we don’t give all of the information you need.) We started doing it this way precisely because we kept running into people who would have 3 nearly perfect interviews and one “hard fail”, and we eventually realized it was because they were so good at faking that they’d seen it before but if they hadn’t seen it before they bombed it hard. So now that we have the “variations”, at least once a month someone will “hard fail” the interview because they’re obviously cheating and will quite literally give the right answer to the wrong question, just rote memorizing it. It’s an arms race. And one that I enjoy.

thih9 5y ago
> It’s an arms race. And one that I enjoy. This sounds like focusing on the wrong thing in the interview process.
vanusa 5y ago
krtwllndr 5y ago
Having been on both sides of interviews but fortunate enough to no have to do leetcode interviews I have a genuine question for those that do. Why do them? Are you really facing those problems frequently enough at FAANG to have know them? Is it uppity engineers? Gatekeeping? Or are you just getting so many applicants that you have to filter somehow and leetcode interviewing has some nice properties (easy to apply remotely, can be done by engineers, strong pass/fail criteria). Genuine interest. Ignore the negative subtext, that's just me on this subject.
- coldtea 5y ago
  Never underestimate the "everybody else is doing them too" factor.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  Its probably partially gatekeeping. "I had to invent a unique sorting algo in this interview so you will too". But also, its a good measure of someones ability to take an abstract problem and solve it. Lots of mini events in a LC problem to critically think. Like you said, we need a filter and its really easy to use LC to be that. That said, I've worked at fang with co-workers who had trouble using iterators or properly assessing complex Boolean logic (and I'm not talking about needing de Morgan), so sometimes LC skills are needed on the job. So getting a signal that "this person can't write loops" means "we don't trust this person not to write an infinite loop", however rare that day comes. There's enough programmers who want FAANG jobs and its easy enough to apply and the pay is high enough that you should be free to gatekeep by someone who understands intro-to-java level data structures and algos. Maybe leetcode-hard is unnecessary, but easy should be doable.
- itronitron 5y ago
  Because if you otherwise like the candidate you can help them along and if you don't like them you can just watch them sweat, but then claim your interview process has some level of technical rigor.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
What a waste of brain power. I really don't get shareholders at big tech companies. They could hire a few teams of talented engineers and trove of cheap developers and forget all of this. Almost nobody needs leetcoding engineers, 0.1% of their tech is hard, the rest is all forms and api, as is most of the industry.
unbanned 5y ago
>It’s ridiculously obvious when people have seen the question before >We started doing it this way precisely because we kept running into people who would have 3 nearly perfect interviews and one “hard fail” So which is it? Obvious they've seen the question before, or only obvious after they fail on an unseen problem... Your arrogance and hostility is hilarious.
purerandomness 5y ago
I don't get it. Your candidates show that after learning how to solve a problem, they can demonstrate they're able to solve it. Have you considered just hiring candidates and then training them, or expect them to learn approaches that are new to them? Right now, you're pretending that your company needs random puzzles solved, and they're pretending that they're able to solve random puzzles without looking them up in an algorithms book. What's the point of this whole theatre? I get that your ego is enjoying that, but is that providing your company really any value?
- colonwqbang 5y ago
  Being able to implement a solution after having already been shown how to do it is sufficient for many roles. But not all. Some roles require that you are also able to figure out solutions to problems you have never seen before. If your company requires only the former that's fine. But if you also require the latter, that's fine too and it's ok to test for it in your interviews. If a company generally requires candidates to be overqualified for their intended role, that's a bit dumb. But I imagine that such a problem would eventually be fixed by the free market (supply of workers at various qualification levels vs. demand for said qualifications).
- jerf 5y ago
  "Your candidates show that after learning how to solve a problem, they can demonstrate they're able to solve it." The parent of your post is talking about a situation where they've demonstrated they've memorized a solution to a particular problem, not that they can solve it. And that it was the wrong solution, which they didn't notice. It's that last bit in particular, combined with not being able to adapt or create a solution for the actual problem, that is the hard fail. I can't imagine my personal interview questions & style are common enough to have shown up on any of these sites, but I have personally witnessed two people (out of a few dozen) who knew only and exactly what was on their school curriculum, but were completely incapable of stepping outside of it. I come at interviews from the point of view that I'm trying to discover what they can do, not what they can't, so when I say that, bear in mind that I didn't hand them a problem and smugly watch them fail for 30 minutes, I actively tried to formulate a problem they could solve and failed. I've also witnessed someone persistently applying a book solution that was the wrong solution to the problem. Perfect depth-first search, but it should have been breadth-first, they couldn't seem to understand my explanation of that, and they shouldn't have put it in a tree in the first place. (It would have worked if the correct search was applied but it was massive overkill. It was something like finding a substring in a string... yes, you can represent that as a tree problem, but you're only making things worse.) They nailed the definition of graph and basically just wrote out the depth-first algorithm as quickly as they could write... but it was wrong, and the moment they stepped off the path they were completely lost. I also don't do brainteasers like this, I focus a lot more on very practical things, so we're talking more like "failing to write code that can take the string 'abcd,efg' and split it on the comma without hardcoding sizes, either handwritten or by calling library code". I really want to start an interview on some kind of success but every once in a while a candidate gets through that I simply can't find the place to start building successes on at all. (You have to remember the "evaporative cooling" effect when reading about interview stories. Of the good candidates that even go through an interview process, they do one round of interviews and get snapped up immediately. People who have good-looking resumes but, alas, graduated with insufficient actual skills, interview over and over again. The end result is the average interviwee, anywhere, is not very good. One of the preceding interviews I'm referring to emotionally wrecked my day, I felt that bad for someone who had clearly put in immense amounts of (all the wrong kinds of) work but I couldn't even remotely hire. But there's nothing I could do about it.) I should also mention I run a style of interview where if I ask you a question and you blast it out of the park in a few seconds, great, you (metaphorically) get full points and then I move on to the next harder variant on it. And I can always make up a harder variant of something we can talk about for an hour or two. If I can't find something you can't blast out of the park in an hour or two, well, unless you're completely insufferable or your salary expectations are something I can't meet, expect the offer shortly. But what you'll be "blasting out of the park" will be something like a full round-trip delivery of a service with code-as-infrastructure and a database and user logins and a solid security design and so on and so on, not solutions to Project Euler problems.
manish_gill 5y ago
Why do you call it cheating? Did the candidate actively copy a solution by deception or were they just very well prepared - to the point that they quickly recognised and solved the problem which they had seen before? Perhaps I should throw out my CLRS and Skiena and invent everything in those books from scratch? It's an Arms race because people like you have turned it into one. You're not solving Nobel prize winning problems, so stop expecting people to magically invent on the spot novel algorithms for things they've never seen before. Some people are good at it and some are not.
ramraj07 5y ago
You might want to learn to read the room buddy. Not everyone’s enthusiastic about this entire shared.
lkxijlewlf 5y ago
I'm not attacking you, but at this point in this thread the absolute absurdity in all of this is ... mind boggling.
PUSH_AX 5y ago
> It’s an arms race. And one that I enjoy. Objectively, a waste of everyones time and energy is what it is.
- nefitty 5y ago
  The lack of self-awareness shown by this interviewer is staggering. You're right, they seem to relish wasting their (paid) and applicants' (unpaid) time. I won't hold my tongue. The people that do this are total assholes, if not downright sociopaths.

thih9 5y ago

> It’s an arms race. And one that I enjoy. This sounds like focusing on the wrong thing in the interview process.

vanusa 5y ago

krtwllndr 5y ago

Having been on both sides of interviews but fortunate enough to no have to do leetcode interviews I have a genuine question for those that do. Why do them? Are you really facing those problems frequently enough at FAANG to have know them? Is it uppity engineers? Gatekeeping? Or are you just getting so many applicants that you have to filter somehow and leetcode interviewing has some nice properties (easy to apply remotely, can be done by engineers, strong pass/fail criteria). Genuine interest. Ignore the negative subtext, that's just me on this subject.

coldtea 5y ago
Never underestimate the "everybody else is doing them too" factor.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vineyardmike 5y ago
Its probably partially gatekeeping. "I had to invent a unique sorting algo in this interview so you will too". But also, its a good measure of someones ability to take an abstract problem and solve it. Lots of mini events in a LC problem to critically think. Like you said, we need a filter and its really easy to use LC to be that. That said, I've worked at fang with co-workers who had trouble using iterators or properly assessing complex Boolean logic (and I'm not talking about needing de Morgan), so sometimes LC skills are needed on the job. So getting a signal that "this person can't write loops" means "we don't trust this person not to write an infinite loop", however rare that day comes. There's enough programmers who want FAANG jobs and its easy enough to apply and the pay is high enough that you should be free to gatekeep by someone who understands intro-to-java level data structures and algos. Maybe leetcode-hard is unnecessary, but easy should be doable.
itronitron 5y ago
Because if you otherwise like the candidate you can help them along and if you don't like them you can just watch them sweat, but then claim your interview process has some level of technical rigor.

jokethrowaway 5y ago

What a waste of brain power. I really don't get shareholders at big tech companies. They could hire a few teams of talented engineers and trove of cheap developers and forget all of this. Almost nobody needs leetcoding engineers, 0.1% of their tech is hard, the rest is all forms and api, as is most of the industry.

unbanned 5y ago

>It’s ridiculously obvious when people have seen the question before >We started doing it this way precisely because we kept running into people who would have 3 nearly perfect interviews and one “hard fail” So which is it? Obvious they've seen the question before, or only obvious after they fail on an unseen problem... Your arrogance and hostility is hilarious.

purerandomness 5y ago

I don't get it. Your candidates show that after learning how to solve a problem, they can demonstrate they're able to solve it. Have you considered just hiring candidates and then training them, or expect them to learn approaches that are new to them? Right now, you're pretending that your company needs random puzzles solved, and they're pretending that they're able to solve random puzzles without looking them up in an algorithms book. What's the point of this whole theatre? I get that your ego is enjoying that, but is that providing your company really any value?

colonwqbang 5y ago
Being able to implement a solution after having already been shown how to do it is sufficient for many roles. But not all. Some roles require that you are also able to figure out solutions to problems you have never seen before. If your company requires only the former that's fine. But if you also require the latter, that's fine too and it's ok to test for it in your interviews. If a company generally requires candidates to be overqualified for their intended role, that's a bit dumb. But I imagine that such a problem would eventually be fixed by the free market (supply of workers at various qualification levels vs. demand for said qualifications).
jerf 5y ago
"Your candidates show that after learning how to solve a problem, they can demonstrate they're able to solve it." The parent of your post is talking about a situation where they've demonstrated they've memorized a solution to a particular problem, not that they can solve it. And that it was the wrong solution, which they didn't notice. It's that last bit in particular, combined with not being able to adapt or create a solution for the actual problem, that is the hard fail. I can't imagine my personal interview questions & style are common enough to have shown up on any of these sites, but I have personally witnessed two people (out of a few dozen) who knew only and exactly what was on their school curriculum, but were completely incapable of stepping outside of it. I come at interviews from the point of view that I'm trying to discover what they can do, not what they can't, so when I say that, bear in mind that I didn't hand them a problem and smugly watch them fail for 30 minutes, I actively tried to formulate a problem they could solve and failed. I've also witnessed someone persistently applying a book solution that was the wrong solution to the problem. Perfect depth-first search, but it should have been breadth-first, they couldn't seem to understand my explanation of that, and they shouldn't have put it in a tree in the first place. (It would have worked if the correct search was applied but it was massive overkill. It was something like finding a substring in a string... yes, you can represent that as a tree problem, but you're only making things worse.) They nailed the definition of graph and basically just wrote out the depth-first algorithm as quickly as they could write... but it was wrong, and the moment they stepped off the path they were completely lost. I also don't do brainteasers like this, I focus a lot more on very practical things, so we're talking more like "failing to write code that can take the string 'abcd,efg' and split it on the comma without hardcoding sizes, either handwritten or by calling library code". I really want to start an interview on some kind of success but every once in a while a candidate gets through that I simply can't find the place to start building successes on at all. (You have to remember the "evaporative cooling" effect when reading about interview stories. Of the good candidates that even go through an interview process, they do one round of interviews and get snapped up immediately. People who have good-looking resumes but, alas, graduated with insufficient actual skills, interview over and over again. The end result is the average interviwee, anywhere, is not very good. One of the preceding interviews I'm referring to emotionally wrecked my day, I felt that bad for someone who had clearly put in immense amounts of (all the wrong kinds of) work but I couldn't even remotely hire. But there's nothing I could do about it.) I should also mention I run a style of interview where if I ask you a question and you blast it out of the park in a few seconds, great, you (metaphorically) get full points and then I move on to the next harder variant on it. And I can always make up a harder variant of something we can talk about for an hour or two. If I can't find something you can't blast out of the park in an hour or two, well, unless you're completely insufferable or your salary expectations are something I can't meet, expect the offer shortly. But what you'll be "blasting out of the park" will be something like a full round-trip delivery of a service with code-as-infrastructure and a database and user logins and a solid security design and so on and so on, not solutions to Project Euler problems.

manish_gill 5y ago

Why do you call it cheating? Did the candidate actively copy a solution by deception or were they just very well prepared - to the point that they quickly recognised and solved the problem which they had seen before? Perhaps I should throw out my CLRS and Skiena and invent everything in those books from scratch? It's an Arms race because people like you have turned it into one. You're not solving Nobel prize winning problems, so stop expecting people to magically invent on the spot novel algorithms for things they've never seen before. Some people are good at it and some are not.

ramraj07 5y ago

You might want to learn to read the room buddy. Not everyone’s enthusiastic about this entire shared.

lkxijlewlf 5y ago

I'm not attacking you, but at this point in this thread the absolute absurdity in all of this is ... mind boggling.

PUSH_AX 5y ago

> It’s an arms race. And one that I enjoy. Objectively, a waste of everyones time and energy is what it is.

nefitty 5y ago
The lack of self-awareness shown by this interviewer is staggering. You're right, they seem to relish wasting their (paid) and applicants' (unpaid) time. I won't hold my tongue. The people that do this are total assholes, if not downright sociopaths.