5 ms·

As a bit of an extremely refactorer myself, there are some of us who like adding features, but others who just like "kneading" the code.

jonathanlydall 5y ago
Was going to say this as it somewhat applies to me, or as my business partner says I’m a bit of a “sweeper”. I seem to get satisfaction from things that a lot of others might find tedious/boring. People like us though just need to watch ourselves that what we’re doing is actually useful opposed to just scratching an itch. Which of course is not exclusive to us as developers often find many other ways of scratching itches without actually adding value.
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  It is healthy to be self aware about outcomes vs just indulging, but I am not longer so worried. On my best projects, I've done the first 90% so that a great many other can collective do the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th 90%s :). Without being "goal oriented" you can feel good about unlocking that part that would be too annoying for others, and they in turn can do the finishing work that wouldn't be fun for you. Don't feel like you're not doing important work just because others are slotting in the keystones.
noobermin 5y ago
People need to be taught to read code and not only write it. I feel like a lot of problems start with people seeing more than 100 lines then saying "fuck it" then start clamoring to remove technical debt by adopting something new or even an writing an entire new code base. Reading code is fun and it's a skill that took me time to develop. People need to told that's a skill you need and yes (shock) not emphasize creativity as much as we do. Creativity is great but it has enough encouragement in society already. We need people willing to read what already exists as well.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  The problem is that most code is utter shit. If you just read shit code and do nothing, you have made a choice to preserve the status quo. At that point, you have become part of the problem.
  - softawre 5y ago
    Lots of developers (especially newer ones) seem to think code is "utter shit" when it really is written that way for a reason. At least I've seen this pattern many times, and used to do it myself decades ago.
    - voakbasda 5y ago
      Despite the implication otherwise, I have been a software engineer for 30 years. This is speaking as an active consultant in the embedded space. There is shit code everywhere, in nearly every single system. Some code may be "written that way for a reason", but it can simultaneously be utter shit. Working shit, but still shit.
      - Ericson2314 5y ago
        Yeah I am a big believer in https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... If you do a from-scratch rewrite, you could stay in igorance and might make those mistakes. But if you do a refactor, especially one broken up into many steps like this Linux one, it in fact demonstrates a better understanding the existing code and any nuance than merely leaving it in place! Not touching scary-looking code is just bad, and not a wise form of humility.
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  Refactoring isn’t rewriting for the hell of it. Maybe some do that, but the majority of the time, it’s to make things clearer, allow for better abstractions, etc. Letting cruft build up because you think rewriting is wrong is how you get technical debt.

jonathanlydall 5y ago

Was going to say this as it somewhat applies to me, or as my business partner says I’m a bit of a “sweeper”. I seem to get satisfaction from things that a lot of others might find tedious/boring. People like us though just need to watch ourselves that what we’re doing is actually useful opposed to just scratching an itch. Which of course is not exclusive to us as developers often find many other ways of scratching itches without actually adding value.

Ericson2314 5y ago
It is healthy to be self aware about outcomes vs just indulging, but I am not longer so worried. On my best projects, I've done the first 90% so that a great many other can collective do the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th 90%s :). Without being "goal oriented" you can feel good about unlocking that part that would be too annoying for others, and they in turn can do the finishing work that wouldn't be fun for you. Don't feel like you're not doing important work just because others are slotting in the keystones.

noobermin 5y ago

People need to be taught to read code and not only write it. I feel like a lot of problems start with people seeing more than 100 lines then saying "fuck it" then start clamoring to remove technical debt by adopting something new or even an writing an entire new code base. Reading code is fun and it's a skill that took me time to develop. People need to told that's a skill you need and yes (shock) not emphasize creativity as much as we do. Creativity is great but it has enough encouragement in society already. We need people willing to read what already exists as well.

voakbasda 5y ago
The problem is that most code is utter shit. If you just read shit code and do nothing, you have made a choice to preserve the status quo. At that point, you have become part of the problem.
- softawre 5y ago
  Lots of developers (especially newer ones) seem to think code is "utter shit" when it really is written that way for a reason. At least I've seen this pattern many times, and used to do it myself decades ago.
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    Despite the implication otherwise, I have been a software engineer for 30 years. This is speaking as an active consultant in the embedded space. There is shit code everywhere, in nearly every single system. Some code may be "written that way for a reason", but it can simultaneously be utter shit. Working shit, but still shit.
    - Ericson2314 5y ago
      Yeah I am a big believer in https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... If you do a from-scratch rewrite, you could stay in igorance and might make those mistakes. But if you do a refactor, especially one broken up into many steps like this Linux one, it in fact demonstrates a better understanding the existing code and any nuance than merely leaving it in place! Not touching scary-looking code is just bad, and not a wise form of humility.
colejohnson66 5y ago
Refactoring isn’t rewriting for the hell of it. Maybe some do that, but the majority of the time, it’s to make things clearer, allow for better abstractions, etc. Letting cruft build up because you think rewriting is wrong is how you get technical debt.