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What If Math Is a Fundamental Part of Nature, Not Something Humans Came Up With?

14 points by thedday 5y ago

badmaterialism 5y ago
What they didn't explicitly come out and say in this article is that if man didn't invent math than it was there before. This is self-explanatory for most people. After all there are hundreds of known numbers that, if off a fiftieth of a percent prevent life from forming. The question is - if man didn't come up with it - where does it exist? Cause numbers are inherently non-physical. Quantum mechanics has proven materialism false for well over a hundred years. Why does it remain taboo to suggest that numbers are inherently non-material? We're not asking you to become theists here - just to recognize that there is more than the physical realm.
togaen 5y ago
Might as well ask: What if something humans recognized as intrinsic to the world around them is actually part of the world around them. Silly.
- garmaine 5y ago
  Well said. The headline is bonkers…
  - ggm 5y ago
    The debate isn't new either. Is maths found or invented goes back to so-crates and Bill & Ted if not before. TL;DR maths exists if you believe in it or not.
    - syki 5y ago
      There are lots of things that wouldn’t exist if humans didn’t exist. The question is whether or not math is one of these things. No one is doubting the existence of mathematics. What is doubted by a great many people is whether or not math exists independent of human existence. If math is an intrinsic part of the universe then is logic also an intrinsic part of the universe? If so is it the standard logic used in mathematics? Does it include the Law of the Excluded Middle?
      - ggm 5y ago
        In other words, we're still taking sides. The existence of asymmetry in the universe, isomers, strongly suggests foundational elements of mathematical logic are inherently part of things, and that we can construct all the usual inductive layers up from and/or/not in some form mechanistically, purely from things as they are, reason absent. Beyond inductive, philosophical questions and completeness and p/np are perhaps innately artefacts of conciousness. Most of the maths of things as they are lies outside these problems. It's a very big universe to argue humans define all states of being... but I grant that the idea of a number which is one more than the value you count to, before entropy prevents all counting is "out there" as a value beyond existence as we understand it, and doubtless countless other numbers and values and expressions. I live in hope some shrimp like thing, or a gas giant conscious cloud is working on that problem.
        syki 5y ago
        The logic used by most mathematicians is uses exclusive or, law of the excluded middle, and is first order logic. There are some mathematicians that don’t use all of these and there are branches of math that don’t use all of them. So when someone claims math is an intrinsic part of the universe without addressing these nuance it gives the impression of an opinion without a good foundation. Assuming a finite universe (and the observable universe is finite) then math is much bigger. At most, one should say a subset of math is intrinsic to the universe.
        ggm 5y ago
        Fair. I like Polyani so I shall put a Polyani quote here which I feel goes to your point: Mathematics as a purely formal system of symbols without a human being possessing the know-how for dealing with the symbols is impossible (1969) the wiki page I found it on is the Brouwer-Hilbert controversy (constructivism vs formalism, which seems a reasonable laymans take on a component of your point) and says: Despite the last-half-twentieth century's continued abstraction of mathematics, the issue has not entirely gone away. which is I feel, what I first said. It's a continuing difference, and as a non mathematician I take heart in that. All of these observations stem from looking at the law of the excluded Middle btw. There was a causal chain of weblinks to get there, I didn't just grab at random.

14 points by thedday 5y ago

What they didn't explicitly come out and say in this article is that if man didn't invent math than it was there before. This is self-explanatory for most people. After all there are hundreds of known numbers that, if off a fiftieth of a percent prevent life from forming. The question is - if man didn't come up with it - where does it exist? Cause numbers are inherently non-physical. Quantum mechanics has proven materialism false for well over a hundred years. Why does it remain taboo to suggest that numbers are inherently non-material? We're not asking you to become theists here - just to recognize that there is more than the physical realm.

togaen 5y ago

Might as well ask: What if something humans recognized as intrinsic to the world around them is actually part of the world around them. Silly.

garmaine 5y ago
Well said. The headline is bonkers…
- ggm 5y ago
  The debate isn't new either. Is maths found or invented goes back to so-crates and Bill & Ted if not before. TL;DR maths exists if you believe in it or not.
  - syki 5y ago
    There are lots of things that wouldn’t exist if humans didn’t exist. The question is whether or not math is one of these things. No one is doubting the existence of mathematics. What is doubted by a great many people is whether or not math exists independent of human existence. If math is an intrinsic part of the universe then is logic also an intrinsic part of the universe? If so is it the standard logic used in mathematics? Does it include the Law of the Excluded Middle?
    - ggm 5y ago
      In other words, we're still taking sides. The existence of asymmetry in the universe, isomers, strongly suggests foundational elements of mathematical logic are inherently part of things, and that we can construct all the usual inductive layers up from and/or/not in some form mechanistically, purely from things as they are, reason absent. Beyond inductive, philosophical questions and completeness and p/np are perhaps innately artefacts of conciousness. Most of the maths of things as they are lies outside these problems. It's a very big universe to argue humans define all states of being... but I grant that the idea of a number which is one more than the value you count to, before entropy prevents all counting is "out there" as a value beyond existence as we understand it, and doubtless countless other numbers and values and expressions. I live in hope some shrimp like thing, or a gas giant conscious cloud is working on that problem.
      - syki 5y ago
        The logic used by most mathematicians is uses exclusive or, law of the excluded middle, and is first order logic. There are some mathematicians that don’t use all of these and there are branches of math that don’t use all of them. So when someone claims math is an intrinsic part of the universe without addressing these nuance it gives the impression of an opinion without a good foundation. Assuming a finite universe (and the observable universe is finite) then math is much bigger. At most, one should say a subset of math is intrinsic to the universe.
        ggm 5y ago
        Fair. I like Polyani so I shall put a Polyani quote here which I feel goes to your point: Mathematics as a purely formal system of symbols without a human being possessing the know-how for dealing with the symbols is impossible (1969) the wiki page I found it on is the Brouwer-Hilbert controversy (constructivism vs formalism, which seems a reasonable laymans take on a component of your point) and says: Despite the last-half-twentieth century's continued abstraction of mathematics, the issue has not entirely gone away. which is I feel, what I first said. It's a continuing difference, and as a non mathematician I take heart in that. All of these observations stem from looking at the law of the excluded Middle btw. There was a causal chain of weblinks to get there, I didn't just grab at random.