10 ms·
Things I Won't Work With: Dioxygen Difluoride (2010)
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y agoReminds me of this classic (also In the Pipeline): https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-you-time https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-yo...
- hilbert42 5y agoWhen it comes to the potency of the odor of thioacetone, it seems to me there are two issues of interest: detection and dilution. 1. The first question is how detectable is thioacetone to the human nose, that is how many molecules are actually needed before someone can actually detect it? The second is, is thioacetone the most detectable molecule known to us, if not then what is it? It seems to me these are important questions for various reasons. Determining the absolute sensitivity or limiting resolution of our sense of smell could be tied up with out ability to detect† thioacetone. Then there's the question of how our sense of smell compares with other animals, dogs for instance. Dogs are renown for their acute sense of smell and we know they have many more smell receptors hence the acuity of their sense compared with humans. My question is do dogs' receptors have the same level of resolution (molecules versus detection) as do humans and does that change from molecule to molecule? Experts please let us know. If these facts are still not well understood then perhaps thioacetone may be a good research tool for the purpose. † Incidentally, it seems to me we've a similar issue with our ability to taste stuff, for instance, the chemical denatonium (Bitrex) is the most bitter substance known to humans and humans can detect it in extremely small amounts. However, the extreme sensitivity of humans to the chemical doesn't necessarily apply to other animals, rats for instance, which makes it a good denaturant for rat poisons, etc. 2. The matter of dilution. It seems to me that our experience of dilution is a bit like exponentiation in that our human sense of scale doesn't work very well when things change at exponential rates. Exponentiation often catches up with us because its effects/actions are 'outside' our normal daily (human) experience. Well, I reckon dilution is a bit like that (certainly so at the edges). We often wash stuff away until there's seemingly nothing left of it and we think it's gone but as chemists know this is often far from being the case. I learned this the hard way as a kid when doing photography after I'd failed to leave my prints in running water sufficient time to wash away all the hypo (if I recall the recommended washing time was 5 minutes and I only washed for about a third that time). The prints looked perfectly OK for some hours afterwards but by the next day, they'd gone a horrible brown color. A lesson learned: insufficient removal of unwanted chemical can be problematic even when there's seemingly precious little or no obvious trace of it left. The fact is it's often very difficult to dilute stuff to the point where its effect is truly negligible. It seems to me that in daily life we've very little idea of (and pay very little attention to) the amount of unwanted stuff that remains after we, say, have washed something clean. In practice we've very little idea of how much of residual chemical remains in a container after it's been washed and cleaned and is eventually transferred to a new and different solution when the container is reused. Getting a feel for cleanliness, purity and impurity of substances, residues etc. is a lot harder than it seems for we fail to consider the fact that there are a great deal more molecules involved in processes than we can actually comprehend (or are cognizant of in the mental sense). That is, if something is diluted well past the point where we can see or smell it then we've a tendency to assume that very little or nothing of consequence remains whether it's in fact true or not. It seems to me that thioacetone is almost the quintessential chemical to demonstrate dilution, impurity, presence of residual molecules etc. by virtue of the fact that it's so easily detectable in only trace amounts. The fact that it isn't dangerous at levels long past where humans can detect it—and given how bad it actually smells would make it useful (and very memorable) for such training exercises. No doubt strict protocols would apply to the conducting of such lessons.
- delgaudm 5y agoPreviously (x8) https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=Things%20I%20Won%27t%20Work%20With%3A%20Dioxygen%20Difluoride&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- bibinou 5y agoIt's really, really good. Short but well-written. The one on chlorine trifluoride (linked in OP, but fixed link) is also really good: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-you-time https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-yo...
- tragictrash 5y agoI 2nd this - never heard of this before and I loved the 3 mins it took to read.
- netizen-936824 5y ago>coping with a metal-fluorine fire Good lord
- tverbeure 5y ago“It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively.” Fantastic! I can see where Derek Lowe got his writing style inspiration. Today, he writes about the world of medicines. His Twitter feed is excellent if you want to know more about some of the finer details about COVID related medicines: https://twitter.com/dereklowe?s=21 https://twitter.com/dereklowe?s=21.
- seattle_spring 5y agoGlad it was reposted a ninth time. I had never seen it, and it led me down an immensely interesting rabbit hole.
- geerlingguy 5y ago
- HPsquared 5y agoFOOF, the compound that makes things go "foof". Are there any other onomatopoeic chemicals out there?
- xaviex 5y agoNot an onomatopoeia but Sodium Citrate, which is used to create cheese that melts Into a smooth consistency, is na3c6h5o7 or NaCHO.
- kragen 5y agoThat would be NaOC(CO2H)(CH2CO2H)2, though, not NaCHO. NaCHO2 is sodium formate. NaCHO would involve deprotonating formaldehyde to get a CHO- ion you could make a sodium salt of. This might be possible, but definitely not in water.
- tyingq 5y agoWikipedia has a list of funny chemical names, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chemical_compounds_with_unusual_names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chemical_compounds_wit... My favorite is probably Arsole, which has an apt diagram: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Arsole.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Arsole.p...
- lostlogin 5y agoOh wow. That’s goatse spectrum too.
- hokumguru 5y agoMy personal favorite article from Derek Lowe about a chemical that isn't actually all that dangerous... but you still likely don't want it around. https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/things-i-won-t-work-thioacetone https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/things-i-won-t-wor...
- monkeybutton 5y agoI'm surprised something so potent was never used as a chemical weapon. Sounds like it could easily clear out a trench or riot in the streets.
- pavel_lishin 5y agoReminds me of the Neal Stephenson novel Zodiac, where a similar agent was used in an offensive manner.
- Laforet 5y agoIn the text it is mentioned that the chemical requires significant effort to crack or activate for the desired (or undesired) effect. Of which I assume is difficult to carry out under combat conditions. Similar compounds have been used as chemical weapons before but eventually give way to more modern agents. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromoacetone https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromoacetone
- zaarn 5y agoIt lacks some desirable properties as chemical warfare agent. For one, it doesn't disperse easily and is even noticable at low concentrations. Meaning if you fill at trench with this, it is likely your own trench will notice it too and you won't be able to enter the field for a bit. And everything in the field will stink too for a while, so you can't take advantage of some resources there.
- intuitionist 5y agoI think my favorite from the series is this one, about a high-nitrogen compound so wildly unstable that it detonated when the lab turned on the spectrometer: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/things-i-won-t-work-azidoazide-azides-more-less https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/things-i-won-t-wor...
- mikewarot 5y agoFollowing a link in the comments gets you to the PDF of Streng's 1962 paper, with some good notes. Having a Pyrex cylinder of this stuff sitting in anything other than a cryostat 20 miles from civilization sounds like a very bad idea. https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jklein2/O2F2.pdf https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jklein2/O2F2.pdf If I wanted to synthesize this stuff, I think my preferred method would be SCP-294 https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-294 https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-294
- Zak 5y ago> SCP-294 I'm curious as to what a "safe distance" is when requesting a cup of anti-water. Reacting 8 ounces of antimatter with a similar amount of matter releases energy on the order of a large thermonuclear bomb.
- the__alchemist 5y agoWell, obviously SCP-294 agrees it's a terrible idea. Possible invocation of self-preservation logic.
- R0b0t1 5y agoA lot of it comes out as neutrinos though.
- andrewflnr 5y agoDoes it? I thought it was pretty much pure gamma radiation.
- sbierwagen 5y agoLow energy electron-positron annihilations produces photons. Higher energy annihilation produces all sorts of stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilation
- pupdogg 5y agoOh, then you will love DimethylMercury https://youtu.be/h049Hgfk-BI https://youtu.be/h049Hgfk-BI
- imglorp 5y agoCuriously, the MSDS indicates SilverShield gloves but does not specifically call out latex gloves as permeable and counter-indicated. This seems like a disastrous error of omission. https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/99021.htm https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/99021.htm
- kristjansson 5y ago> Skin: Causes skin irritation. May be fatal if absorbed through the skin. I’m sure the actual users read these things thoroughly, and the second point is called out above, but that ___really___ buries the lede.
- 2-718-281-828 5y agoI read somewhere that in professional dealings with toxic and caustic substances no latex glove would ever be considered impermeable but immediately replaced upon contact with a new pair. The trick is to systematically avoid anything splashing by applying best practices.
- kragen 5y agoKaren Wetterhahn did replace her (latex) gloves immediately after spilling a drop of dimethylmercury on them, but it killed her anyway.
- dark-star 5y agoMy chemistry teacher warned me to stay away from people who would use the ° sign for Kelvin ("90°K") or leave it out when talking about degrees centigrade ("-180C")... this guy does both ;-)
- YawningAngel 5y agoHe doesn't, he consistently omits the degree symbol. It's used in a direct quote
- codetrotter 5y agoIt is true that one should say just Kelvin and not “degrees Kelvin”. But it wasn’t always so. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin > In 1967/1968, Resolution 3 of the 13th CGPM renamed the unit increment of thermodynamic temperature "kelvin", symbol K, replacing "degree Kelvin", symbol °K. And from Lord Kelvin himself in his "On an Absolute Thermometric Scale", a copy of which is at https://web.archive.org/web/20080201095927/http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/papers/on_an_absolute_thermometric_scale.html https://web.archive.org/web/20080201095927/http://zapatopi.n... > The characteristic property of the scale which I now propose is, that all degrees have the same value; that is, that a unit of heat descending from a body A at the temperature T° of this scale, to a body B at the temperature (T-1)°, would give out the same mechanical effect, whatever be the number T. This may justly be termed an absolute scale, since its characteristic is quite independent of the physical properties of any specific substance. So even Lord Kelvin himself was originally speaking of degrees in his absolute scale.
- seoaeu 5y ago>> In 1967/1968, Resolution 3 of the 13th CGPM renamed the unit increment of thermodynamic temperature "kelvin", symbol K, replacing "degree Kelvin", symbol °K. Which is particularly relevant given the usage is within a quote of a 1962 paper
- crzysdrs 5y agoA fictional short story by Charles Stross that is a fitting companion piece to this article. An amusing discussion about using extremely dangerous substances as rocket fuel. https://www.tor.com/2012/07/20/a-tall-tail/ https://www.tor.com/2012/07/20/a-tall-tail/
- eesmith 5y agoThe "John D. Clark" in that story is the author of "Ignition!: An informal history of liquid rocket propellants", available from https://archive.org/details/ignition_201612 https://archive.org/details/ignition_201612 and frequently posted on HN (see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22Ignition%21%22%20informal&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... ). That book describes a number of approaches with beryllium: https://archive.org/details/ignition_201612/page/n201/mode/2up?q=beryllium https://archive.org/details/ignition_201612/page/n201/mode/2... > Recently they have been experimenting with beryllium instead of aluminum. Combustion efficiency with these propellants, particularly the beryllium-based ones, is bound to be bad, since the chamber temperature is comparatively low. ... About all it proves is the willingness of rocket people to try anything, no matter how implausible, if they can con NASA or one of the services into paying for it. ... > When the combustion difficulties are added to the toxicity of BeO and the price of beryllium, there isn’t really much point in continuing with it. and with fluorine, in the liquid form: https://archive.org/details/ignition_201612/page/n39/mode/2up?q=fluorine https://archive.org/details/ignition_201612/page/n39/mode/2u... > The optimum oxidizer is liquid oxygen. (“Fluorine might be good, but its density is too low, and it’s a holy terror to handle.”) and in an oxidizer that can decompose: https://archive.org/details/ignition_201612/page/n87/mode/2up?q=fluorine https://archive.org/details/ignition_201612/page/n87/mode/2u... > O2F2 [FOOF] had been reported but was unstable at room temperature ... [a list of other compounds, concluding] ... So ClF3 it had to be. ... It is also quite probably the most vigorous fluorinating agent in existence-much more vigorous than fluorine itself. Gaseous fluorine, of course, is much more dilute than the liquid ClF3, and liquid fluorine is so cold that its activity is very much reduced. The next page (p74) describes an industrial accident with it, then its use in aerospace: > The results were excellent, but the difficulties were infuriating. Ignition was beautiful —so smooth that it was like turning on a hose. Performance was high—very close to theoretical. And the reaction was so fast that you could burn it in a surprisingly small chamber. But. If your hardware was dirty, and there was a smear of oil or grease somewhere inside a feed line, said feed line would ignite and cleverly reduce itself to ashes. Gaskets and O-rings generally had to be of metal; no organic material could be restrained from ignition. Teflon would stand up under static conditions, but if the CTF flowed over it with any speed at all, it would erode away like so much sugar in hot water, even if it didn’t ignite. So joints had to be welded whenever possible, and the welds had to be good ... and that's before getting to the "real difficulties." Stross certainly read "Ignition!" before writing that short story - https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2009/10/there_is_a_story_behind_this.html#comment-33311 https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2009/10/there_i... .
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- geocrasher 5y agoThis sounds very nearly almost as toxic as dihydrogen monoxide- a truly deadly substance[0] that must be used very carefully. [0]https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/dhmo.htm https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/dhmo.htm [Edit] tough crowd tonight.
- Stevvo 5y agoFunny joke if you're 12. Which I guess is why everyone heard it from their middle-school chemistry teacher.
- User23 5y agoWhen I was a snot-nosed kid I tried that joke on a chemist family friend. He helpfully informed me that hydrogen hydroxide is a more clever way to say it that’s less wrong, but still fails to really capture the polar nature of H2O.
- pavel_lishin 5y agoI found it amusing well into college.
- MathCodeLove 5y agoI appreciate the attempt at humor. Try to make a less polarizing joke next time.
- mPReDiToR 5y agoThis will always be funny. Keep living the dream. There are countless people out there who know nothing of chemistry and this is a great way to make a point, or make them laugh dependent on the framing. http://dhmo.org/ http://dhmo.org/ has always been my go to URL.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- cirrus3 5y ago> "blown up or poisoned" link is 404 =(
- 5e92cb50239222b 5y agohttp://web.archive.org/web/20160328234548/http://lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Fluorine.html http://web.archive.org/web/20160328234548/http://lateralscie...
- cagr 5y agoThese things are so reactive they can't exist outside specific conditions in the lab.
- slowtokyo 5y agoIt reminds me of a similarly toned book called “Ignition!” By John Clark that is about the history of the development of rocket propellants. Recommend for a fun read.
- hermitcrab 5y agoI am reading it at the moment. I like the writing style and it is an interesting subject, but I am bit hampered by my lack of knowledge about chemistry.
- graderjs 5y agoThe article was good, without the "Morons" at the end directed at Hangzhou Sage chemical company. It didn't need that, and it reeks a little of racism to pretend they're morons for working with FOOF, considering how much he lauded respect on Streng for doing so. The article already had good comic effect without needing to do it at someone else's expense whether it was racist or just cruel and dismissive.
- wiremaus 5y agoThey don't work with it though. The insult was for abusing that catalogue and falsely claiming they could commercially produce and ship something that they could not, and I think it was fairly deserved. I don't really see any sort of racial dogwhistles or subtext here, this reads like a small snipe over questionable business practices.
- bob778 5y agoI think the pint is that it’s clearly a fake listing as no one could safely handle 1kg of the stuff.
- fxtentacle 5y agoI think he was making fun of them for the fake listing. Offering 1kg of FOOF in a chemical database is like offering a nuclear warhead with free shipping on Amazon. Both are so ridiculously dangerous that they will surely not be publicly accessible.
- 8bitsrule 5y agoSometimes I wonder if China is still PO'd about the Opium Wars or something.
- IHLayman 5y ago“ No, elemental fluorine has commanded respect since well before anyone managed to isolate it, a process that took a good fifty years to work out in the 1800s. (The list of people who were blown up or poisoned while trying to do so is impressive).” The link intrigued me to click but unfortunately it 404ed. That led me to hunt down the list, and I found this snippet on an Royal Society of Chemistry page [0]: “Sir Humphry Davy, Louis-Joseph Gay Lussac and Louis-Jacques Thenard all suffered intensely from the effects of inhaling hydrogen fluoride. Davy suffered injury to his eyes and fingernails. George Knox and his brother, Thomas Knox, both suffered from hydrofluoric acid poisoning. Thomas Knox nearly died. Paul Louyet and Jerome Nickles died during their investigations, presumably due to the effects of inhaling HF.” [0]: https://edu.rsc.org/feature/the-discovery-of-fluorine/2020249.article https://edu.rsc.org/feature/the-discovery-of-fluorine/202024...
- 5e92cb50239222b 5y agohttp://web.archive.org/web/20160328234548/http://lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Fluorine.html http://web.archive.org/web/20160328234548/http://lateralscie...
- jcims 5y agoTook me a minute but finally found a link for the category: https://www.science.org/topic/blog-category/things-i-wont-work-with https://www.science.org/topic/blog-category/things-i-wont-wo...
- ce4 5y agoHere's most last HN discussions about most of the articles in the "Things I won't work with" series. Note that the content was published at least on three different domains in the last years (science.org, sciencemag.org, corante.com): https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22Things%20i%20won%27t%20work%20with%22&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- seanhunter 5y agoMy dad used to be a chemical engineer and one evening his "what did you do at work today?" story started with a chucle: "So one of the lab guys was doing this thing where you boil concentrated hydrochloric acid in a glass reactor and add cynanide.....". Suffice to say it ended up on the evening news because a residential area had to be evacuated.
- fxtentacle 5y agoI love the ending of that article :)
- CapitalistCartr 5y agoBy the way, there is such a thing as Tetraoxygen difluoride, if FOOF isn't insane enough for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraoxygen_difluoride https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraoxygen_difluoride
- DonBarredora 5y agoMan that's some bad writing. Just get to the point and stop trying to be funny.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]