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Stuck in between, Canada is just weird. I learned speak a liminal dialect of Canadian from a mix of 1970s CBC radio presenters, UK expat caregivers and teachers

Stuck in between, Canada is just weird. I learned speak a liminal dialect of Canadian from a mix of 1970s CBC radio presenters, UK expat caregivers and teachers, theatre school educated neigbours. It wasn't just "Canadian dainty," as people who said shed-ule were considered to have an affectation, but that influence was prominent. Both the anglo Westmount area in Montreal and the uptown neighbourhoods of Toronto have a detectable patter that isn't so much british as an emphasis on articulating complete thoughts, which at the time came from being raised by parents with multiple generations of education. Kids who went on to go to school in Boston or New Haven tended to come back with a more American mannerism, which abraded off some of their recieved colonial agreeableness, but you could hear them code switching because Americans typically don't play at banter the way people from commonwealth countries still do. American banter is closer to a spectrum of what we would call chirping or passive aggression, as their culture didn't inherit a presumption of benevolence or a sense of noblesse oblige, but what I like about American culture and language is that where commonwealth deference is based on the polite presumption the person you are speaking to is secretly noble, Amercan deference respects that the person you are speaking to is plausibly equally dangerous. Having worked with a number of cross-border teams, the misunderstandings can be both comical, and irreconcilable.

jollybean 5y ago
That's an interesting point, but I don't think the American distinction relates to 'danger' rather, it's just that they are less formal, more gregarious, less social protocol, and more familiar.
- motohagiography 5y ago
  It's danger because the concept of polite has remnants of frontier culture, and just like the commonwealth doesn't have "nobles" anymore america doesn't have gunslingers, but I'm saying the origin of the etiquette that forms the culture is related to them. Americans are very formal with very strictly observed social protocols, you're just not allowed to talk about them because then it would acknowledge class, which is the last great taboo there. If you want to see what breaking American formal rules and social protocols looks like, tease them for crossing personal boundaries or poke fun at uniquely middle class aspirations, and it can make you an enemy for life. Recent American etiquette requires that you just "get it," in terms of who has the power in a situation because they very-officially don't use formalisms, and this tacit alignment and sensitivity to its shifts in particular is a big class signifier there. Most of them don't have a cultural abstraction for relating impersonally, where in other cultures you would acknowledge you are relating based on implied rules. Sometimes it's a relief, and sometimes the cringe is almost fatal. A personal example would be that to me, west coast culture is a lot like being around revolutionary marxists who make a point of being rude to wait staff because they think civility is bourgeois oppression, so as an outsider with normal adult boundaries, I can find it a bit alien. The culture I'm from emphasizes relating to service by learning to be worthy of it, which is probably equally bizarre to someone not familiar with that kind of interaction. You don't get a lot of "americans are weird," perspective these days because the internet just assumes everyone has been educated by television shows that were written to entertain people, and mimicking actors is normal behaviour, but since we're into accents and culture, yes, americans can be pretty weird. :)
  - justsomehnguy 5y ago
    > it would acknowledge class Somewhat recently I stumbled upon a commentary about how sometimes Russians are perceived by Amercians as almost snobby by the way they talk. As I understood it's just the result of Received Pronunciation and a pretty formal English by the book, without an actual, "live" language.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      Russians don't smile, show cues of empathy, they are serious, they are candid, which can come off as 'snobby'.
      - justsomehnguy 5y ago
        In that case it was solely through the choice of words and phrase composition, AFAIR. One thing I remember is what they often used "I suppose" construct in the casual speech, which rubbed off their peers.
        OJFord 5y ago
        A Canadian was teasing me (British) for that recently, found it quite baffling. It's not like the meaning or idea isn't communicated in North America - there they just say 'I guess' instead! (And if the current trend continues, I suppose (!!) we'll soon be mocked for saying 'I think' instead of 'I feel like'!)
  - jollybean 5y ago
    I think you're fantasizing quite a lot here. 'Polite' has nothing to do with 'fear' of gunslingers. And 'common, middle class politeness' is just a behaviour along the same way as not farting, swearing scratching your balls. "you're just not allowed to talk about them because then it would acknowledge class" No, nobody is worried that you're going to bring up class. There are some PC taboos which if broken, will cause some people to be upset, but that's more or less social politics, not class. "west coast culture is a lot like being around revolutionary marxists who make a point of being rude to wait staff because they think civility is bourgeois oppression," I don't want to upset you but this is a ridiculous. I respect creative contemplation, but this is nowhere near reality.

jollybean 5y ago

That's an interesting point, but I don't think the American distinction relates to 'danger' rather, it's just that they are less formal, more gregarious, less social protocol, and more familiar.

motohagiography 5y ago
It's danger because the concept of polite has remnants of frontier culture, and just like the commonwealth doesn't have "nobles" anymore america doesn't have gunslingers, but I'm saying the origin of the etiquette that forms the culture is related to them. Americans are very formal with very strictly observed social protocols, you're just not allowed to talk about them because then it would acknowledge class, which is the last great taboo there. If you want to see what breaking American formal rules and social protocols looks like, tease them for crossing personal boundaries or poke fun at uniquely middle class aspirations, and it can make you an enemy for life. Recent American etiquette requires that you just "get it," in terms of who has the power in a situation because they very-officially don't use formalisms, and this tacit alignment and sensitivity to its shifts in particular is a big class signifier there. Most of them don't have a cultural abstraction for relating impersonally, where in other cultures you would acknowledge you are relating based on implied rules. Sometimes it's a relief, and sometimes the cringe is almost fatal. A personal example would be that to me, west coast culture is a lot like being around revolutionary marxists who make a point of being rude to wait staff because they think civility is bourgeois oppression, so as an outsider with normal adult boundaries, I can find it a bit alien. The culture I'm from emphasizes relating to service by learning to be worthy of it, which is probably equally bizarre to someone not familiar with that kind of interaction. You don't get a lot of "americans are weird," perspective these days because the internet just assumes everyone has been educated by television shows that were written to entertain people, and mimicking actors is normal behaviour, but since we're into accents and culture, yes, americans can be pretty weird. :)
- justsomehnguy 5y ago
  > it would acknowledge class Somewhat recently I stumbled upon a commentary about how sometimes Russians are perceived by Amercians as almost snobby by the way they talk. As I understood it's just the result of Received Pronunciation and a pretty formal English by the book, without an actual, "live" language.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    Russians don't smile, show cues of empathy, they are serious, they are candid, which can come off as 'snobby'.
    - justsomehnguy 5y ago
      In that case it was solely through the choice of words and phrase composition, AFAIR. One thing I remember is what they often used "I suppose" construct in the casual speech, which rubbed off their peers.
      - OJFord 5y ago
        A Canadian was teasing me (British) for that recently, found it quite baffling. It's not like the meaning or idea isn't communicated in North America - there they just say 'I guess' instead! (And if the current trend continues, I suppose (!!) we'll soon be mocked for saying 'I think' instead of 'I feel like'!)
- jollybean 5y ago
  I think you're fantasizing quite a lot here. 'Polite' has nothing to do with 'fear' of gunslingers. And 'common, middle class politeness' is just a behaviour along the same way as not farting, swearing scratching your balls. "you're just not allowed to talk about them because then it would acknowledge class" No, nobody is worried that you're going to bring up class. There are some PC taboos which if broken, will cause some people to be upset, but that's more or less social politics, not class. "west coast culture is a lot like being around revolutionary marxists who make a point of being rude to wait staff because they think civility is bourgeois oppression," I don't want to upset you but this is a ridiculous. I respect creative contemplation, but this is nowhere near reality.