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The counter argument is that Bitcoin is a battery [1] so that if you live in a place like Iceland with plentiful energy, so much that even exporting it as alumi

The counter argument is that Bitcoin is a battery [1] so that if you live in a place like Iceland with plentiful energy, so much that even exporting it as aluminum leaves extra, then you can turn it into Bitcoin and export it that way. But most Bitcoin mining is not that. I feel like Joni Mitchell in the Big Yellow Taxi: "They paved paradise and put up a parking lot" [2] Why are we allowing this to happen? (Well, at least outside China) [1] https://www.nickgrossman.xyz/2021/bitcoin-as-battery/ https://www.nickgrossman.xyz/2021/bitcoin-as-battery/ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20

jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
Except it’s not really like a battery because you can’t get the energy back out. The energy ultimately turned into resistive heat and was lost. It’s more like something you manufacture using energy, which is most (all?) things.
RobertoG 5y ago
If you use energy to process aluminium at the end you have aluminium. If you use energy to move bits in a computer at the end you have heat and the result of a calculation. If that calculation was just to proof that you did the calculation, well, that doesn't sound very efficient to me but that's just my opinion. What I'm pretty sure is that it's not a battery.
- landemva 5y ago
  There is a physical and energy cost to assay gold. Same for btc.
teraflop 5y ago
The "Bitcoin as battery" analogy fails for at least two significant reasons, IMO: 1. If you spend energy to produce, say, charged batteries or aluminum or biodiesel, that allows you to do something useful with those resources without needing corresponding energy consumption later. When you spend energy to mine Bitcoin, there's no way to use it to decrease your future energy needs; you can only use it to pay others and induce them to produce something you want, spending even more energy in the process. 2. With most energy production methods, you can get at least a bit of extra efficiency by scaling up. But the Bitcoin economy in aggregate can't produce coins at a higher rate; the best you can do is compete for a larger slice of the fixed pie. So even though each individual miner is incentivized to spend more and more energy, the economies of scale are negative.
- mwattsun 5y ago
  When Nick Grossman's article was posted 9 months ago [1], there were people who argued in favor of Bitcoin as a battery, but now it seems Bitcoin is so hated that my original comment is headed into negative territory and I'm arguing alone, so I'd use this as a sell indicator if I had any Bitcoin. I don't like the energy wastage of Bitcoin anymore than anyone else. This needs to be fixed and firing up old fossil fuel plants, for example in upstate New York, needs to be outlawed. I just thought the Bitcoin as battery was interesting and I stand by it. I can imagine cases where abundant renewable energy sources are not being utilized because they are geographically remote and Bitcoin mining is a way to get some value out of it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26609247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26609247 [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/some-locals-say-bitcoin-mining-operation-ruining-one-finger-lakes-n1272938 https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/some-locals-say-...
smnrchrds 5y ago
The thing about battery is that you can take the energy out of it. It stores energy. That's the entire point of a battery. How on earth can you do that with Bitcoin? If you can't, Bitcoin isn't a battery, it's a black hole.
- notahacker 5y ago
  Yep. At best, it's a black hole that pays money to the people lucky enough to have spare renewable capacity. But the extra money is of no help to the climate. From an Iceland's point of view, the alternative to using excess geothermal to Bitcoin mine is (i) build smaller geothermal power plants which have even smaller carbon footprints to build/maintain or (ii) reduce the carbon footprint of other countries by courting their energy-intensive industries with low cost renewable electricity.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    Not just a black hole, but a black hole that rewards people for using spare renewable capacity in a profoundly wasteful way. The bitcoin network (and all PoS) schemes incentivize waste beyond merely throwing away power: they incentivize e-waste, frivolous cooling and refrigerant use, &c. It's strictly better to just dump excess capacity than it is to use it on PoS schemes.
- mwattsun 5y ago
  Ideally, you would mine your Bitcoin in Iceland or Chile [1] with geothermal or hydro and buy corn from Iowa with it and the farmers there use it to buy power from the local windmill grid, so it's a battery in that sense. [1] https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/chile https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/chile
  - meribold 5y ago
    It's a battery in the sense that you can use it to buy electricity?
    - 5y ago
woodruffw 5y ago
Bitcoin is a sink, not a battery. You can dump excess power into it, but you can't take it out. The aluminum analogy is apt, but at least I can cook eggs on aluminum pans and wrap my leftovers in tinfoil, even if I can't turn it back into electricity. Bitcoin and other PoS schemes have no such upside.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bparsons 5y ago
How do I power my house with a JPEG of an ape?
- me_me_mu_mu 5y ago
  Convince a bunch of renters that it has value and when they’re broke their wealth has been transferred to you to power your house.

jallen_dot_dev 5y ago

Except it’s not really like a battery because you can’t get the energy back out. The energy ultimately turned into resistive heat and was lost. It’s more like something you manufacture using energy, which is most (all?) things.

RobertoG 5y ago

If you use energy to process aluminium at the end you have aluminium. If you use energy to move bits in a computer at the end you have heat and the result of a calculation. If that calculation was just to proof that you did the calculation, well, that doesn't sound very efficient to me but that's just my opinion. What I'm pretty sure is that it's not a battery.

landemva 5y ago
There is a physical and energy cost to assay gold. Same for btc.

teraflop 5y ago

The "Bitcoin as battery" analogy fails for at least two significant reasons, IMO: 1. If you spend energy to produce, say, charged batteries or aluminum or biodiesel, that allows you to do something useful with those resources without needing corresponding energy consumption later. When you spend energy to mine Bitcoin, there's no way to use it to decrease your future energy needs; you can only use it to pay others and induce them to produce something you want, spending even more energy in the process. 2. With most energy production methods, you can get at least a bit of extra efficiency by scaling up. But the Bitcoin economy in aggregate can't produce coins at a higher rate; the best you can do is compete for a larger slice of the fixed pie. So even though each individual miner is incentivized to spend more and more energy, the economies of scale are negative.

mwattsun 5y ago
When Nick Grossman's article was posted 9 months ago [1], there were people who argued in favor of Bitcoin as a battery, but now it seems Bitcoin is so hated that my original comment is headed into negative territory and I'm arguing alone, so I'd use this as a sell indicator if I had any Bitcoin. I don't like the energy wastage of Bitcoin anymore than anyone else. This needs to be fixed and firing up old fossil fuel plants, for example in upstate New York, needs to be outlawed. I just thought the Bitcoin as battery was interesting and I stand by it. I can imagine cases where abundant renewable energy sources are not being utilized because they are geographically remote and Bitcoin mining is a way to get some value out of it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26609247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26609247 [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/some-locals-say-bitcoin-mining-operation-ruining-one-finger-lakes-n1272938 https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/some-locals-say-...

smnrchrds 5y ago

The thing about battery is that you can take the energy out of it. It stores energy. That's the entire point of a battery. How on earth can you do that with Bitcoin? If you can't, Bitcoin isn't a battery, it's a black hole.

notahacker 5y ago
Yep. At best, it's a black hole that pays money to the people lucky enough to have spare renewable capacity. But the extra money is of no help to the climate. From an Iceland's point of view, the alternative to using excess geothermal to Bitcoin mine is (i) build smaller geothermal power plants which have even smaller carbon footprints to build/maintain or (ii) reduce the carbon footprint of other countries by courting their energy-intensive industries with low cost renewable electricity.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  Not just a black hole, but a black hole that rewards people for using spare renewable capacity in a profoundly wasteful way. The bitcoin network (and all PoS) schemes incentivize waste beyond merely throwing away power: they incentivize e-waste, frivolous cooling and refrigerant use, &c. It's strictly better to just dump excess capacity than it is to use it on PoS schemes.
mwattsun 5y ago
Ideally, you would mine your Bitcoin in Iceland or Chile [1] with geothermal or hydro and buy corn from Iowa with it and the farmers there use it to buy power from the local windmill grid, so it's a battery in that sense. [1] https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/chile https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/chile
- meribold 5y ago
  It's a battery in the sense that you can use it to buy electricity?
  - 5y ago

woodruffw 5y ago

Bitcoin is a sink, not a battery. You can dump excess power into it, but you can't take it out. The aluminum analogy is apt, but at least I can cook eggs on aluminum pans and wrap my leftovers in tinfoil, even if I can't turn it back into electricity. Bitcoin and other PoS schemes have no such upside.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

bparsons 5y ago

How do I power my house with a JPEG of an ape?

me_me_mu_mu 5y ago
Convince a bunch of renters that it has value and when they’re broke their wealth has been transferred to you to power your house.