4 ms·

Another possibility: the moral panic about comic books / rap music / low brow culture was justified and its ubiquity has done active harm to our society.

Apocryphon 5y ago
Certainly without comic books, comic book movies wouldn’t have eaten Hollywood
- fullshark 5y ago
  I don't necessarily mean a problem as a matter of taste, more a destruction of shared cultural values, in particular those that are good for "society" like a belief in the value of work, family unit, deeper concerns than material wealth (e.g. god/spirituality) etc at least in the west / America.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    The spread of low brow culture might potentially come at the expense of traditional local cultures, but any cultural expansion means the creation of a new shared culture, no? In which case the issue then becomes what the values does this culture valorize.
    - fullshark 5y ago
      Yeah and it's not all bad for sure, I think the general acceptance of homosexuality has been a good thing and large cultural shifts certainly made it happen. I do wonder if these shifts are universally good or a mix of positive and negative developments, and the people warning us years ago had some good points.
  - andrewzah 5y ago
    I will never understand how people can suggest a specific musical genre or a medium is responsible for ruining society or "destroying values like the value of work" with a straight face. When I ask for empirical proof of such things, there never is any, just anecdotal statements. As if country music never touched upon these sorts of topics. Or books. Or ... Moral panics come from old people who don't like anything that's different from their youth. "Kids these days!" And in America, especially so if that thing happens to be dominated by black people.
    - estaseuropano 5y ago
      Moral panics also come from normal people who have felt the effect on their and their families' lives. For instance I am neither a prude nor a tea-totaler but I can see how many hours or my own life porn and alcohol have taken, hours that I sure enjoyed but that would have been better and as pleasantly invested in other activities. I know people that have sunk into porn addictions and lost their lives, including any ability to enjoy normal sex. And we all know what an alcoholic looks like. So is the ubiquitous availability of porn a good thing or a bad thing or something with nuance? If you had a loved one disappear in world of Warcraft or a porn spiral you will start to question whether those are normal things that should remain so openly available without limits.
      - andrewzah 5y ago
        That has nothing to do with people erroneously blaming the "decay of society" or the "loss of traditional values" on things like rap music or videogames. We can talk about how the internet has made things like porn ubiquitous, and how certain games are intensely addicting. But that is a wholly separate discussion.
    - fullshark 5y ago
      How do I provide empirical proof? Survey data or something over a 30 year time span? Gallup has some interesting confidence in institutions data you can parse but doesn't really strengthen my point IRC in case you are interested. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.as... I didn't get into porn even which I thought of after the fact, the lowest brow culture possible and it seems likely its pervasiveness and how future adolescents will learn about sex through consuming it will have profound impacts no?
SavantIdiot 5y ago
How?
- fullshark 5y ago
  I expound in a conversation with Apocryphon attached to that post
  - SavantIdiot 5y ago
    > more a destruction of shared cultural values, in particular those that are good for "society" like a belief in the value of work, family unit, deeper concerns than material wealth (e.g. god/spirituality) etc at least in the west / America. This is what conservatives have been crowing about since the 40/50's when black music started dominating the airwaves. It's a really old argument that is literally moral panic with no proof. I thought maybe you had some new thoughts to add, but you don't.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      If you think only 50s Conservatives find some parts of rap questionable I propose an experiment. Show some NWA lyrics without attribution to a young, progressive audience, there's some interesting takes in there about homosexuals, jews and women. Of course we don't even play 90% of that stuff any more because any radio station would be cancelled within five minutes and not by conservatives.
    - fullshark 5y ago
      Thanks for adding a subtle accusation of racism or at least guilt by association to the discussion.
- freewilly1040 5y ago
  To take an example - one of the most popular songs of my childhood glamorized smoking weed (literally had the lyrics “smoke weed everyday”!). Stripping away all the justified opposition to prohibition, it’s really not good for most people to smoke weed everyday. Pointing out any potential harms became deeply uncool. It’s not difficult to imagine people probably smoke weed regularly as a result.
erikerikson 5y ago
I don't know about "low brow culture" but comic books and rap have some fantastic material in them. Consider works like Promethea from Alan Moore or In Her Magic Box by Atmosphere.
- seanp2k2 5y ago
  Or in pop culture, all the Marvel movies.

Apocryphon 5y ago

Certainly without comic books, comic book movies wouldn’t have eaten Hollywood

fullshark 5y ago
I don't necessarily mean a problem as a matter of taste, more a destruction of shared cultural values, in particular those that are good for "society" like a belief in the value of work, family unit, deeper concerns than material wealth (e.g. god/spirituality) etc at least in the west / America.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  The spread of low brow culture might potentially come at the expense of traditional local cultures, but any cultural expansion means the creation of a new shared culture, no? In which case the issue then becomes what the values does this culture valorize.
  - fullshark 5y ago
    Yeah and it's not all bad for sure, I think the general acceptance of homosexuality has been a good thing and large cultural shifts certainly made it happen. I do wonder if these shifts are universally good or a mix of positive and negative developments, and the people warning us years ago had some good points.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  I will never understand how people can suggest a specific musical genre or a medium is responsible for ruining society or "destroying values like the value of work" with a straight face. When I ask for empirical proof of such things, there never is any, just anecdotal statements. As if country music never touched upon these sorts of topics. Or books. Or ... Moral panics come from old people who don't like anything that's different from their youth. "Kids these days!" And in America, especially so if that thing happens to be dominated by black people.
  - estaseuropano 5y ago
    Moral panics also come from normal people who have felt the effect on their and their families' lives. For instance I am neither a prude nor a tea-totaler but I can see how many hours or my own life porn and alcohol have taken, hours that I sure enjoyed but that would have been better and as pleasantly invested in other activities. I know people that have sunk into porn addictions and lost their lives, including any ability to enjoy normal sex. And we all know what an alcoholic looks like. So is the ubiquitous availability of porn a good thing or a bad thing or something with nuance? If you had a loved one disappear in world of Warcraft or a porn spiral you will start to question whether those are normal things that should remain so openly available without limits.
    - andrewzah 5y ago
      That has nothing to do with people erroneously blaming the "decay of society" or the "loss of traditional values" on things like rap music or videogames. We can talk about how the internet has made things like porn ubiquitous, and how certain games are intensely addicting. But that is a wholly separate discussion.
  - fullshark 5y ago
    How do I provide empirical proof? Survey data or something over a 30 year time span? Gallup has some interesting confidence in institutions data you can parse but doesn't really strengthen my point IRC in case you are interested. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.as... I didn't get into porn even which I thought of after the fact, the lowest brow culture possible and it seems likely its pervasiveness and how future adolescents will learn about sex through consuming it will have profound impacts no?

SavantIdiot 5y ago

How?

fullshark 5y ago
I expound in a conversation with Apocryphon attached to that post
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  > more a destruction of shared cultural values, in particular those that are good for "society" like a belief in the value of work, family unit, deeper concerns than material wealth (e.g. god/spirituality) etc at least in the west / America. This is what conservatives have been crowing about since the 40/50's when black music started dominating the airwaves. It's a really old argument that is literally moral panic with no proof. I thought maybe you had some new thoughts to add, but you don't.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    If you think only 50s Conservatives find some parts of rap questionable I propose an experiment. Show some NWA lyrics without attribution to a young, progressive audience, there's some interesting takes in there about homosexuals, jews and women. Of course we don't even play 90% of that stuff any more because any radio station would be cancelled within five minutes and not by conservatives.
  - fullshark 5y ago
    Thanks for adding a subtle accusation of racism or at least guilt by association to the discussion.
freewilly1040 5y ago
To take an example - one of the most popular songs of my childhood glamorized smoking weed (literally had the lyrics “smoke weed everyday”!). Stripping away all the justified opposition to prohibition, it’s really not good for most people to smoke weed everyday. Pointing out any potential harms became deeply uncool. It’s not difficult to imagine people probably smoke weed regularly as a result.

erikerikson 5y ago

I don't know about "low brow culture" but comic books and rap have some fantastic material in them. Consider works like Promethea from Alan Moore or In Her Magic Box by Atmosphere.

seanp2k2 5y ago
Or in pop culture, all the Marvel movies.