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Web3 is a buzzword that makes it sound like something which it isn't, same with AI - dumb but pattern recognition is still useful. I wouldn't call trustless pro

Web3 is a buzzword that makes it sound like something which it isn't, same with AI - dumb but pattern recognition is still useful. I wouldn't call trustless programmable money with defined supply irrelevant since there is no alternative in the mainstream financial system. You are talking about just one function - transfer of value - but that already works just fine. For your points: You can have much lower transaction fees than in Visa / Mastercard (which sometimes you can't even legally charge customer with) so there's a bigger scam by your definition. One has to find someone willing to trade to get goods -_- because dollars instantly turn into chicken soup when you're hungry. For fractional banking you need a trusted system, this is outside of cryptocurrency scope but you can do it atop of cryptocurrecnies just fine, look at exchanges.

chx 5y ago
> You are talking about just one function - transfer of value I do not. I am talking of the only way money enters this system. If there would be no money in the system no one would care. At the end of the day, in this time and place, our society decided money is the ultimate goal. I don't like it but it's what it is. > You can have much lower transaction fees than in Visa / Mastercard First of all: it's nonsensical to compare money to ... money? the problem with crypto"currency" is that it's not money and it's crossing that barrier which makes players lose money. Second, it's not inherent to the money system to use Visa / Mastercard. You can use other ways to transfer money -- but again, this is irrelevant.
- zinekeller 5y ago
  > Second, it's not inherent to the money system to use Visa / Mastercard. You can use other ways to transfer money -- but again, this is irrelevant. To highlight this, Americans are grappling with Zelle (which is just rolled out) and ACH while their neighbors to the north have Interac running relatively seamlessly and Europeans have SEPA and even some countries have local feeless/reasonably priced quick transfer systems like Swish/iDeal, and discussing how Asians handle their transfer and payments would just shake heads on why those systems aren't available stateside (I'll pick India's UPI and the (mainland) Chinese system as representatives, but that doesn't mean similar systems aren't available elsewhere).
  - StingyJelly 5y ago
    If you don't charge customers for their debit/credit card payments (which again you sometimes legally cannot do) the point stands even if you have a 0-fee payment option since even if you choose to use that you are still paying for other people's transactions.
    - zinekeller 5y ago
      > you are still paying for other people's transactions Ultimately, someone needs to eat the cost of that. For barter, you need to eat the cost of wrongly-advertised products. For paper money, you need to eat the cost of either actively rejecting fake paper money or accept that from time to time you will have fake and unredeemable paper money. For coins, same thing, you need to verify that the weight is indeed what's expected or accept that some fake coins will end up in your coffers. For electronic systems (regardless of the form), someone needs to run the computers that verifies that transaction A did indeed happen. Some pretend that only centralised electronic systems are the only ones having costs, while in fact it's far from the truth. Ironically, the credit card game in the US where they jack up the merchant fees way, way up is a counterexample that capitalism is fostering a pro-consumer market (I'm not saying that capitalism per se is broken, it's just the fact that capitalist policies in this area doesn't work out great). In Europe where they implemented caps, "rewards" type credit cards have gone down, but regular credit card and debit card usage have gone up. This is because the "rewards" system isn't pro-consumer, it looks like pro-consumer but instead it actually benefits only those who massively use them to the detriment of others. Unlike "rewards" type credit cards, regular credit cards acts more like a tool that can make or break finances who uses them not correlated to the frequency of use, and debit cards are essentially plastic wallets.
  - andrecarini 5y ago
    > and even some countries have local feeless/reasonably priced quick transfer systems Brazil has one [0]: instant transfers to any account, 24/7, zero fees (at least for now). You can buy pizza, taxi rides and pay your rent with it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(electronic_payment_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(electronic_payment_system...
- StingyJelly 5y ago
  How do you define money if not a medium for value transfer? For the ultimate goal, I'd say that's wealth / power.
- hinkley 5y ago
  Strictly speaking, if the issuer of the currency didn’t get fully on board with the transition, wouldn’t it be mayhem? If I am a private financial institution, I’m having a grand old time converting the first 1% of dollars to crypto. I can still spend all of that money on salaries and construction and mega yachts. But when we are at 50%? You have half the dollars in the world. You can’t possibly spend them. This isn’t income any longer, it’s a liability. The only way to get to 90% is if you trigger hyperinflation. Eventually to beat fiat currency you actually have to win the government over. They collected gold coins and issues dollars, because it’s fiat currency and you can do that. How do you collect all of the silver and not issue fiat currency? How do you collect all the dollars and not do the same? Magic thinking. It’s all magic thinking, and I’m too old for this shit.

chx 5y ago

> You are talking about just one function - transfer of value I do not. I am talking of the only way money enters this system. If there would be no money in the system no one would care. At the end of the day, in this time and place, our society decided money is the ultimate goal. I don't like it but it's what it is. > You can have much lower transaction fees than in Visa / Mastercard First of all: it's nonsensical to compare money to ... money? the problem with crypto"currency" is that it's not money and it's crossing that barrier which makes players lose money. Second, it's not inherent to the money system to use Visa / Mastercard. You can use other ways to transfer money -- but again, this is irrelevant.

zinekeller 5y ago
> Second, it's not inherent to the money system to use Visa / Mastercard. You can use other ways to transfer money -- but again, this is irrelevant. To highlight this, Americans are grappling with Zelle (which is just rolled out) and ACH while their neighbors to the north have Interac running relatively seamlessly and Europeans have SEPA and even some countries have local feeless/reasonably priced quick transfer systems like Swish/iDeal, and discussing how Asians handle their transfer and payments would just shake heads on why those systems aren't available stateside (I'll pick India's UPI and the (mainland) Chinese system as representatives, but that doesn't mean similar systems aren't available elsewhere).
- StingyJelly 5y ago
  If you don't charge customers for their debit/credit card payments (which again you sometimes legally cannot do) the point stands even if you have a 0-fee payment option since even if you choose to use that you are still paying for other people's transactions.
  - zinekeller 5y ago
    > you are still paying for other people's transactions Ultimately, someone needs to eat the cost of that. For barter, you need to eat the cost of wrongly-advertised products. For paper money, you need to eat the cost of either actively rejecting fake paper money or accept that from time to time you will have fake and unredeemable paper money. For coins, same thing, you need to verify that the weight is indeed what's expected or accept that some fake coins will end up in your coffers. For electronic systems (regardless of the form), someone needs to run the computers that verifies that transaction A did indeed happen. Some pretend that only centralised electronic systems are the only ones having costs, while in fact it's far from the truth. Ironically, the credit card game in the US where they jack up the merchant fees way, way up is a counterexample that capitalism is fostering a pro-consumer market (I'm not saying that capitalism per se is broken, it's just the fact that capitalist policies in this area doesn't work out great). In Europe where they implemented caps, "rewards" type credit cards have gone down, but regular credit card and debit card usage have gone up. This is because the "rewards" system isn't pro-consumer, it looks like pro-consumer but instead it actually benefits only those who massively use them to the detriment of others. Unlike "rewards" type credit cards, regular credit cards acts more like a tool that can make or break finances who uses them not correlated to the frequency of use, and debit cards are essentially plastic wallets.
- andrecarini 5y ago
  > and even some countries have local feeless/reasonably priced quick transfer systems Brazil has one [0]: instant transfers to any account, 24/7, zero fees (at least for now). You can buy pizza, taxi rides and pay your rent with it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(electronic_payment_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(electronic_payment_system...
StingyJelly 5y ago
How do you define money if not a medium for value transfer? For the ultimate goal, I'd say that's wealth / power.
hinkley 5y ago
Strictly speaking, if the issuer of the currency didn’t get fully on board with the transition, wouldn’t it be mayhem? If I am a private financial institution, I’m having a grand old time converting the first 1% of dollars to crypto. I can still spend all of that money on salaries and construction and mega yachts. But when we are at 50%? You have half the dollars in the world. You can’t possibly spend them. This isn’t income any longer, it’s a liability. The only way to get to 90% is if you trigger hyperinflation. Eventually to beat fiat currency you actually have to win the government over. They collected gold coins and issues dollars, because it’s fiat currency and you can do that. How do you collect all of the silver and not issue fiat currency? How do you collect all the dollars and not do the same? Magic thinking. It’s all magic thinking, and I’m too old for this shit.